Fit jumps and/or splinters

[paulg]

I had been wondering about this question for a while and it has arisen in another thread, so I wondered what the A/E community prefers to do in competition - fit, splinter or something else.

 

As a Robson/Segal reader, I prefer fit jumps and cannot splinter into a new suit. But Scottish expert standard is that single jumps are fit and double jumps are splinters.

 

What's your preference?

 

Paul

[Fluffy]

4♦ fit jump, I expect this to be read by anyone.

 

3♦ is a weak jump shift in diamonds for me, as a passed hand I would take it as fit jump as well.

[rogerclee]

In my opinion, for a casualish partnership (or even a very regular, high-level one), it's most important to just not mix any of these things up. You can fix this with a simple rule:

 

We can only splinter in the opponents' suits. In competition, jumps in a new suit are fitted.

 

We can debate whether or not this is the most effective treatment (I think it's the best way to play that can be explained in under 30 seconds), but it sure is easy.

[andy_h]

I like to play all jumps are fit jumps and if it's the opponent's suit it's a splinter. I like to be able to distinguish the level of offensiveness based on a 3 or a 4level jump. A hand with long diamonds I tend to bid 2D.

[Apollo81]

I'll start a sub-poll:

 

which of these would you rather play:

 

1. 2♠ = 3+ card limit raise, 2NT = 4-card game forcing raise, 3♣ = 4-card limit raise, 3♦ = 4-card mixed raise, 3♥ = weak raise, to make a natural 2NT bid you must start with double

 

2. above, but 2NT is natural & invitational, and 3♣ is a 4-card limit+ raise

[Apollo81]

i voted for 3♦ "some raise", 4♦ fit, and I'm surprised that I'm the only one

[Fluffy]

I'll start a sub-poll:

 

which of these would you rather play:

 

1. 2♠ = 3+ card limit raise, 2NT = 4-card game forcing raise, 3♣ = 4-card limit raise, 3♦ = 4-card mixed raise, 3♥ = weak raise, to make a natural 2NT bid you must start with double

 

2. above, but 2NT is natural & invitational, and 3♣ is a 4-card limit+ raise

From the above I prefer 2.

 

But I think you have too much raises, I am happy doubling with the natural 2NT invitational, but I like to bid my minors when I have them.

[Apollo81]

I think you have too much raises, I am happy doubling with the natural 2NT invitational, but I like to bid my minors when I have them.

You can still double with a hand that wants to bid a minor, then convert to the minor. The above structure just stops you from preempting in the minor. I pick up many times more raise hands than 3-minor preempts anyway.

[jdonn]

Both fit jumps is my preferred method.

[skjaeran]

Both fit jumps is my preferred method.

Me too.

[gnasher]

I prefer both to be fit bids, and I'd assume it without discussion in most casual [English] partnerships.

 

Hate the idea of using all my three-level fit bids to show gradations of high-card strength.

[Tcyk]

I think John Montgomery has it right in his book on the Revision Club System. First of all, it is going to make a difference if you are a passed hand or not. Since Revision Club employs negative free bids, jumps to 3 or 4 in a minor suit takes on a different meaning than might be expressed by those not playing negative free bids. I am not a lover of Bergen raises.

 

Heart support can be shown in a number of ways. We can pass because partner is virtually forced to keep the bidding open. We can make a negative double and return to hearts. We can bid 2♠ to show a limit raise of better. We can bid 3♠ as a splinter bid. We can make a preemptive raise of hearts.

 

Three of a minor suit by an unpassed hand is natural and shows 12+ HCP and four of a minor is a fit jump. Three of a minor by a passed hand is a fit jump shift, denying heart support and showing about 11 HCP with strength concentrated in the suit bid.

[Cascade]

I like to play all jumps are fit jumps and if it's the opponent's suit it's a splinter. I like to be able to distinguish the level of offensiveness based on a 3 or a 4level jump. A hand with long diamonds I tend to bid 2D.

Doesn't the combination fit jumps in new suits and splinters in the opponent's suit duplicate some hand types?

[maggieb]

I like to play all jumps are fit jumps and if it's the opponent's suit it's a splinter. I like to be able to distinguish the level of offensiveness based on a 3 or a 4level jump. A hand with long diamonds I tend to bid 2D.

Doesn't the combination fit jumps in new suits and splinters in the opponent's suit duplicate some hand types?

Do you mean that after 1H-1S, you could bid all of 3D, 3S and 4D with 4+ support, short spades and 5+ diamonds? I guess that's true but they show different things right? :)

 

With x Kxxx AJ10xx xxx it is nice to make a 3D gametry.

 

With x Kxxx Axxxx AJx you bid 3S, showing a gameforcing raise with short spades without stressing either side suit.

 

With x Jxxxx KQxxx Kx you bid 4D showing a raise to 4H with diamonds on the side, to help partner in case they bid 4S.

 

With x AQxx AQJxx Kxx you could bid 3D, planning to try for slam if partner signs off in 3H. Or you could splinter, I'll leave it to your expert judgement. :D

[dake50]

As I play xfers in competition, I show 'help suit' with xfer then support. Jumps are control or splinter raises, case by case.

[Cascade]

I like to play all jumps are fit jumps and if it's the opponent's suit it's a splinter. I like to be able to distinguish the level of offensiveness based on a 3 or a 4level jump. A hand with long diamonds I tend to bid 2D.

Doesn't the combination fit jumps in new suits and splinters in the opponent's suit duplicate some hand types?

Do you mean that after 1H-1S, you could bid all of 3D, 3S and 4D with 4+ support, short spades and 5+ diamonds? I guess that's true but they show different things right? :)

 

With x Kxxx AJ10xx xxx it is nice to make a 3D gametry.

 

With x Kxxx Axxxx AJx you bid 3S, showing a gameforcing raise with short spades without stressing either side suit.

 

With x Jxxxx KQxxx Kx you bid 4D showing a raise to 4H with diamonds on the side, to help partner in case they bid 4S.

 

With x AQxx AQJxx Kxx you could bid 3D, planning to try for slam if partner signs off in 3H. Or you could splinter, I'll leave it to your expert judgement. :)

I have no doubt that you use them to show different things.

 

It just seems having three bids for similar hand types must overload your system somewhere else.

[jdonn]

It just seems having three bids for similar hand types must overload your system somewhere else.

How do you use the various bids after 1♥ (1♠)?

[Cascade]

It just seems having three bids for similar hand types must overload your system somewhere else.

How do you use the various bids after 1♥ (1♠)?

Jump shifts are splinters

 

new suits forcing

 

We also have a forcing balanced raise (not game forcing)

[andy_h]

It just seems having three bids for similar hand types must overload your system somewhere else.

How do you use the various bids after 1♥ (1♠)?

Jump shifts are splinters

 

new suits forcing

 

We also have a forcing balanced raise (not game forcing)

Like maggieb suggested, fitshowing jumps and splinters should show different things. Fitshowing jumps can identify potential trick source and it can also allow partner to judge high level competitive auctions (if partner knows about the secondary fit etc). Splintering just doesn't do that job, and if it does, how does partner know which cards are "fitting" well. Let's say I had KJxx support for partner and AKTxx(x) on the side. I would like to be able to show both things in one bid rather than to make a 2/1 forcing bid and then support partner since the auction may get very high before you even show your support (not suggesting that you do it, just mentioning it as a potential problem if fitshowing jumps aren't played).

Quite funny as you mention this, because I remember a hand from Beijing where splintering would get you to a grand very easily whilst a fitshowing jump makes it a tad tougher.

 

Think the hand was something like:

[hv=d=w&v=b&n=sxhadaxxxcaqtxxxx&w=sqxhkqj9xdkqjtxcx&e=st9xxxhtxxxdxxxcx&s=sakj8xhxxxdxckj9x]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

[jdonn]

It just seems having three bids for similar hand types must overload your system somewhere else.

How do you use the various bids after 1♥ (1♠)?

Jump shifts are splinters

 

new suits forcing

 

We also have a forcing balanced raise (not game forcing)

IMO that sounds like less duplication but also less value. When your side suit is all in one suit, like say x Kxxx AJTxx xxx, then I think a splinter is not as accurate as a fit jump.

[Cascade]

It just seems having three bids for similar hand types must overload your system somewhere else.

How do you use the various bids after 1♥ (1♠)?

Jump shifts are splinters

 

new suits forcing

 

We also have a forcing balanced raise (not game forcing)

IMO that sounds like less duplication but also less value. When your side suit is all in one suit, like say x Kxxx AJTxx xxx, then I think a splinter is not as accurate as a fit jump.

Of course if you find a hand ideal for your methods then it will be better to be playing that method.

 

Similarly if I have a shortage and values spread over the other two suits then a splinter will be more descriptive - say ♠ x ♥Qxxx ♦Kxxx ♣Kxxx (trying to keep the values the same as your example).

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with fit-jumps my criticism was with the duplication of hand types when combining fit-jumps in a new suit and splinters in the opponent's suit.

[jdonn]

I don't think there is anything wrong with fit-jumps my criticism was with the duplication of hand types when combining fit-jumps in a new suit and splinters in the opponent's suit.

I understand, and it's a perfectly fair point. I still prefer it though, mostly on a frequency basis. You have some (I really don't think THAT much) duplication on hands with short spades, but you have short spades (given their spade overcall) far more often than shortness in another suit.

[paulg]

It just seems having three bids for similar hand types must overload your system somewhere else.

How do you use the various bids after 1♥ (1♠)?

Jump shifts are splinters

 

new suits forcing

 

We also have a forcing balanced raise (not game forcing)

And double jumps, say 1♥ - (1♠) - 4♦?

[Cascade]

It just seems having three bids for similar hand types must overload your system somewhere else.

How do you use the various bids after 1♥ (1♠)?

Jump shifts are splinters

 

new suits forcing

 

We also have a forcing balanced raise (not game forcing)

And double jumps, say 1♥ - (1♠) - 4♦?

We use those as void splinters. Either limited in strength or something that is intending to bid on over a sign-off.