Sub forum for real experts?

[matmat]

I am not convinced that the goal is to increase forum participation at all cost. there is something to be said for the quality/quantity ratio...

[csdenmark]

It is the B/I that may be unable to recognize the good answers from the bad, so it would be of more benefit to the community if the B/I were moderated so that the advice given there were more reliable.  Unreliable advice in the A/E forum being more recognizable to the A/E players reading the forum, it is less important to moderate it.

 

If you're looking for an expert forum for expert discussion of expert issues, I'd suggest lobbying for implementation of an "ignore" feature or more diligently ignoring unworthy posts.

I completely agree that this is the good and probably the most easy solution to implement.

 

I think the problem which is of most importance is the cultural problem. We need much more persons from non-english speaking countries. Great bridge nations like Poland and Italy are rarely posting here. With the exception of US I think the most frequent bridge player on BBO is from Turkey. Those are also invisible in this Forum.

 

International bridge is much more than USA and ACBL.

[Winstonm]

Since the advanced/expert forum is a complete joke where everyone posts anyways, I propose a forum that is somehow restricted where there can be some real bridge discussion between people who are advanced/expert without having to read through all the worthless drivel from the selfish unaware people who are not advanced/expert who just want to hear themselves talk.

 

I hope your livelihood isn't dependent upon getting along with lesser mortals who are "complete jokes" when it comes to bridge.

[ghow]

I agree with Roland and Helene_t's replies here. I have been a BBO member since

2005 and my bridge game has improved in part by watching expert matches on Vugraph and in part from discussions in the forums. I would hate to be excluded from

discussions in a forum much the same as I would hate to be barred from kibbitzing

vugraph matches simply because of my skill level (or someone elses interpretation of my skill level).

OTOH, I understand JLOL's frustration with some of the "expert" posters nonsense. Having a forum where l posts are restricted to "experts" that allows anyone to

read the posts would be an acceptable alternative for me although being able to ask a question after reading a post would be better.

[hrothgar]

It is the B/I that may be unable to recognize the good answers from the bad, so it would be of more benefit to the community if the B/I were moderated so that the advice given there were more reliable.  Unreliable advice in the A/E forum being more recognizable to the A/E players reading the forum, it is less important to moderate it.

 

If you're looking for an expert forum for expert discussion of expert issues, I'd suggest lobbying for implementation of an "ignore" feature or more diligently ignoring unworthy posts.

I completely agree that this is the good and probably the most easy solution to implement.

 

I think the problem which is of most importance is the cultural problem. We need much more persons from non-english speaking countries. Great bridge nations like Poland and Italy are rarely posting here. With the exception of US I think the most frequent bridge player on BBO is from Turkey. Those are also invisible in this Forum.

 

International bridge is much more than USA and ACBL.

Wow...

 

A forum in English is predominantly visited by folks from English speaking countries...

 

Will the wonders never cease

[matmat]

I hope your livelihood isn't dependent upon getting along with lesser mortals who are "complete jokes" when it comes to bridge.

I really don't see how this has anything to do with a request for a true Expert forum.

 

my reading of "complete jokes" isn't "lesser mortals," it's trolls and self-appointed world class players who've never heard of restricted choice or some such.

[Winstonm]

I hope your livelihood isn't dependent upon getting along with lesser mortals who are "complete jokes" when it comes to bridge.

I really don't see how this has anything to do with a request for a true Expert forum.

 

my reading of "complete jokes" isn't "lesser mortals," it's trolls and self-appointed world class players who've never heard of restricted choice or some such.

where there can be some real bridge discussion between people who are advanced/expert without having to read through all the worthless drivel from the selfish unaware people

 

You are right. They are not lesser mortals, simply selfish unaware people who spout worthless drivel.

 

There is a way to express oneself without demeaning others.

[hrothgar]

I think that Justin's suggestion is a reasonable one, however, i think that implementation is likely to be tricky: There are a lot of competing design goals...

 

I would favor a system like the following:

 

* Anyone / everyone is allowed to read the forum

 

* Anyone can post new topics or reply to threads. However, said comments need to be approved by some kind of moderating committee.

 

* BBO "Stars" are have unfettered ability to post... Their comments don't need to get approved by said committee.

 

Stars get to decide whether "random" forum members also get to bypass the moderating committee. (This would permit posters who contribute valuable content the ability to post more quickly)

 

I'd favor a system in which

 

1. A given Star can sponsor 0-3 forums members at a time.

2. Some kind of voting system is used to elevate nominees

3. Stars can blackball 0-1 people at a given time

[uday]

One simple, cheap way to implement this:

 

create an area ( similar to watercooler but owned by whoever wants to moderate this).

 

Have the owner/moderator erase posts at will . Naturally, we'll toss in a warning that low-quality posts will be erased/edited without warning, and that quality is defined only by the moderator.

 

 

another simple way is to have the particular area be fully moderated. ideally, where moderator can flag certain ids as "can post at will." all others posts are not visible until the moderator approves them ( and are never made visible if he does not )

 

I dont know if invision (this board software) supports anything like this but we can look around if it comes to that.

 

I can't say i have a strong sense of whether this will fly but it might not be hard to find out.

[qwery_hi]

In response to some of the concerns, I think the idea is to only restrict based on the original post in a thread. Anyone could reply or ask a question. It's not perfect but it's definitely an improvement.

 

No one is saying certain people don't have the right to start a thread or post in general. The forums (in general) would simply function better if posts were filed to the proper (specific) forum, that's all.

Sounds good.

 

But are we making the implicit assumption that only A/E can ask the interesting questions in Bridge?

[hanp]

I think this idea has a lot of potential, but it also has some serious dangers.

 

I am not sure how to deal with the issue of hurt feelings. Say I wanted to join and Josh would have to tell me I wasn't welcome, that could be unpleasant for both of us. I think it might work if you couldn't apply for it but the "selectors" would invite regular posters that they think could benefit the expert discussion. I think one could start a small subforum with just a small group of already very active "experts".

 

Perhaps a more serious issue is the concerns voiced by jillybean, heavydluxe and others: it should remain possible for anybody to ask questions, not only to start threads, but also to ask clarification to the comments of the experts. If the only way for me to ask a question was to start a new thread in a different forum that the experts might not even look at, then that would be a very bad situation.

 

So how can we have a discussion between experts only, and at the same time allow questions from anybody?

 

I think this is easily possible, but I'm not sure how to explain my idea because I'm almost computer illiterate. Maybe an example of how I imagine this would be easiest:

 

JLOL

 

Dear expert colleagues. I was wondering what you would open with ♠AJ10xx ♥KJ10xx ♦Ax ♣x. Thank you for your thoughts!

 

[14 reactions, click here to view]

 

mikeh

 

An excellent question worthy of discussion young jlol. We have enough highcards to open 1S (highest from two 5-card suits) but I am worried about my rebid. What is the vulnerability?

 

[32 reactions, click here to view]

 

Frances

 

Agree with mikeh.

 

[5 reactions, click here to view]

 

jdonn

 

WTF??? 1S WTP!!!

 

[3 reactions, click here to view]

 

 

In this format I imagine that the experts would be very willing to react to the comments and questions that are asked in response to their own reactions.

[qwery_hi]

What we really need is a reddit* style upvote/downvote of posts. Perhaps we can create a sub-reddit for expert-bridge?

 

* www.reddit.com

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit

[csdenmark]

This Forum lives from and is driven from questions about cultural problems. Alert- and cheating are the most frequent topics. Very much of it is americans with lack of knowledge of rules and habits applied to by poles, french, italians, swedes and turks. Therefore the questions and accusations to come up.

 

This Forum has been living for many years. In the same period several similar Forums based in one culture have been shut down. They cannot produce these kind of questions and quarrels and they simply dry out.

 

The question is:

- Who are the experts to explain about polish methods?

- Who are the experts to explain about french methods?

- Who are the experts to explain about swedish methods?

- Who are the experts to explain about turkish methods?

- Who are the experts to explain about italian methods?

[Walddk]

I think it might work if you couldn't apply for it but the "selectors" would invite regular posters that they think could benefit the expert discussion.

This is basically how it works as far as vugraph commentators are concerned. Most people are invited, but we also leave the door open for applicants. Some are accepted, some are not. It's not always an easy task to judge, but when in doubt we give most applicants a chance or two.

 

That procedure has been working quite well (imo) for about 7 years.

 

Roland

[matmat]

The question is:

- Who are the experts to explain about polish methods?

- Who are the experts to explain about french methods?

- Who are the experts to explain about swedish methods?

- Who are the experts to explain about turkish methods?

- Who are the experts to explain about italian methods?

who cares?

 

if the forum works well all the relevant posters will filter in.

 

Besides, i expect that:

- a lot of the discussions will not be related to systems, but rather cardplay

- a lot of the bidding problems will be system independent (make slam try or not? show shortness or not? etc.)

- there aren't that many experts on the methods mentioned above on the forums anyway.

[Phil]

I think this a great idea, and a long time coming. My thoughts:

 

Anyone should be able to post problems, however, a moderator should have the latitude to transfer the thread from the proposed sub-forum (name TBD) to the BI (too basic), or to the SAYC 2/1 or Non-Natural (more of a systemic than a judgment issue). IMO, the moderators do not have active enough roles here, except for the deletion or locking of offensive posts / threads.

 

Choosing a panel is tough, however, the LAST method I would support is using gold-stars. Fred or Uday can correct me if I am wrong, but at one time these were handed out on a referral basis, especially when Fred and Uday weren't familiar with the national-level players from a country like (fill in the blank). Accordingly, the possession of a gold star is not a measure of playing proficiency IMHO, and should not be used as a determinant for stocking an expert panel.

 

I would suggest the formation of a committee of perhaps the top ten posters that are active and respected on BBF and I would give this job to Fred (if he would accept it). This initial group would nominate perhaps ten more of the active posters to round out and comprise a core group. This group of 20 players would also have the responsibility (honor?) to expand the panel by discussing the new sub-forum with their peers.

 

The same initial committee would have the responsibility of monitoring behavior and tone of its members.

 

I think the comments about this new sub-forum eroding the interest and credibility of other sub-forums is rubbish. If anything, more interest in the forums will be a benefit, since a lot more people will be reading them.

[hrothgar]

Choosing a panel is tough, however, the LAST method I would support is using gold-stars. Fred or Uday can correct me if I am wrong, but at one time these were handed out on a referral basis, especially when Fred and Uday weren't familiar with the national-level players from a country like (fill in the blank). Accordingly, the possession of a gold star is not a measure of playing proficiency IMHO, and should not be used as a determinant for stocking an expert panel.

 

I would suggest the formation of a committee of perhaps the top ten posters that are active and respected on BBF and I would give this job to Fred (if he would accept it). This initial group would nominate perhaps ten more of the active posters to round out and comprise a core group. This group of 20 players would also have the responsibility (honor?) to expand the panel by discussing the new sub-forum with their peers.

Rather than dumping this all into Fred's lap, we might try something like the following:

 

1. Allow anyone to nominate their 10 top suggests for a core committee.

2. Said nominations are sent (in private) to Uday or Ben or whomever.

3. The results are collated, and the top 10 vote getters identified

4. This list gets sent over to Fred for final approval

[csdenmark]

The question is:

- Who are the experts to explain about polish methods?

- Who are the experts to explain about french methods?

- Who are the experts to explain about swedish methods?

- Who are the experts to explain about turkish methods?

- Who are the experts to explain about italian methods?

who cares?

 

if the forum works well all the relevant posters will filter in.

 

Besides, i expect that:

- a lot of the discussions will not be related to systems, but rather cardplay

- a lot of the bidding problems will be system independent (make slam try or not? show shortness or not? etc.)

- there aren't that many experts on the methods mentioned above on the forums anyway.

if the forum works well all the relevant posters will filter in.

The Forum does not work well else this thread would not come up

 

a lot of the discussions will not be related to systems, but rather cardplay

Correct - but the threads with questions are mostly related to the auction

 

a lot of the bidding problems will be system independent (make slam try or not? show shortness or not? etc.)

Correct - No need calling for experts to explain basics

 

there aren't that many experts on the methods mentioned above on the forums anyway

This is the real problem. There are not so many experts available. And those available are not experts about what is important to those who asks.

[TimG]

Choosing a panel is tough, however, the LAST method I would support is using gold-stars. Fred or Uday can correct me if I am wrong, but at one time these were handed out on a referral basis, especially when Fred and Uday weren't familiar with the national-level players from a country like (fill in the blank). Accordingly, the possession of a gold star is not a measure of playing proficiency IMHO, and should not be used as a determinant for stocking an expert panel.

 

I would suggest the formation of a committee of perhaps the top ten posters that are active and respected on BBF and I would give this job to Fred (if he would accept it). This initial group would nominate perhaps ten more of the active posters to round out and comprise a core group. This group of 20 players would also have the responsibility (honor?) to expand the panel by discussing the new sub-forum with their peers.

Rather than dumping this all into Fred's lap, we might try something like the following:

 

1. Allow anyone to nominate their 10 top suggests for a core committee.

2. Said nominations are sent (in private) to Uday or Ben or whomever.

3. The results are collated, and the top 10 vote getters identified

4. This list gets sent over to Fred for final approval

This assumes that the top ten vote getter would accept the responsibility.

 

One problem with this sort of thing is that the people that nominate themselves aren't always the ones that would be wanted and the ones that would be wanted aren't always interested.

[jdonn]

In response to some of the concerns, I think the idea is to only restrict based on the original post in a thread. Anyone could reply or ask a question. It's not perfect but it's definitely an improvement.

 

No one is saying certain people don't have the right to start a thread or post in general. The forums (in general) would simply function better if posts were filed to the proper (specific) forum, that's all.

Sounds good.

 

But are we making the implicit assumption that only A/E can ask the interesting questions in Bridge?

I don't think there is any implication of that. Many of the questions posted by B/I players are very interesting and tend to be thoughtfully answered by the more advanced players. The point is simply that those questions belong in the B/I forum.

 

I still think lots of the ideas in this thread go too far. I feel a good start would simply be give about 5 more people the power to move threads from any forum to any other. Then charge those people with keeping the threads in the appropriate forum. No need for membership committees or new forums or exclusive clubs.

[655321]

I too have mixed feelings.

 

To me the biggest problem - or perhaps annoyance, rather than problem - is not people who post a non-problem, or who recommend a bad bid. Nothing wrong with people giving their opinion. Rather it is the people who hammer away, making post after post defending their bad recommendation, or their bad methods, causing threads to be covered with 'a thick layer of garbage'.

 

I understood Justin's original post to be asking for a forum where any person who is (according to some selection criteria) a good player and a sensible poster can post. This is not the same as limiting the new forum to exactly 10 posters, as suggested by people later on.

 

But, maybe something like this is worth trying. If the new forum does not work, it can just be closed down.

 

As something of an aside, I am often amused by the jlall groupie factor.  We've all seen a question posed that receives a half dozen "I pass because" answers.  Then Justin chimes in with "I can't understand passing, I'd bid 2S because" and there are suddenly a bunch of "2S, wtp" posts from an often predictable group of posters. 

 

LOL, I have also been amused at this - there is one regular poster in particular who is quite blatant about copying Justin's answers. ;)

[Winstonm]

Wouldn't it be easier to simply furnish those concerned with an expert-only-secret-thread decoder ring and a pair of those nifty drivel-proof BBF Bridge-Matrix 3D sunglasses?

[helene_t]

- there is one regular poster in particular who is quite blatant about copying Justin's answers. ;)

It's the other way around. Whenever I show that Justin is wrong, he edits his post so that it looks as if he agreed with me in the first place.

[JLOL]

Fred and Uday: Thanks for hearing my idea and the opinions on it, whatever happens.

 

Winston/some others: My goal is not to demean non experts, as matmat said I was basically demeaning the trolls who post like they are adv/exp etc when they aren't. I will agree if your view is that I should never be demeaning towards any group of people no matter what they do though. I have no problem with people who are not adv/exp in bridge. In fact I think people like jillybean who are not afraid to ask questions and try to improve are great, I'm sure she asks questions that a lot of intermediates might wonder about and learn a lot from it and it's easy to see she's grown a lot as a player in the last few years.

 

However, jillybean does not pretend to be an expert on bridge. Likewise I rarely post in the watercooler on threads related to science, and I do not pretend like I know anything about it. There are a LOT of really smart people on the forums though and I really enjoy reading those threads and learning stuff. Occasionally if I am confused I will ask a question about something there. If there was a seperate subforum for people who were experts in the various fields of science to discuss some more high level things there, I would never try to post something with authority about something that is likely way over my head. I would NOT be shocked if I started making terrible posts in their high level science threads that basically derailed their discussion if they were not happy, especially if there were 8 other sub forums that I could post on.

 

So anyways, if you interpreted my OP in this thread as trying to say people who are not expert bridge players suck at posting or something, that is really not what I meant. I just think you suck at posting if you pretend like you are an expert when you are not, and post on the adv/exp forum accordingly.

 

As you have alluded to, I often work with and play with non expert players, many of them are very successful in business/life and are very interesting and good people that I am good friends with. I have a lot of respect for people who have been successful in other areas of life. I have no respect for the trolls on this forum though. But again, if your view is that I should be more respectful than I have been in this post and others to the trolls, maybe you are right, but at least I got my disdain for them across.

 

All: I agree with the concept that this might be a better idea in theory than in practice because of the real world problems of implementing it. That said, I think that this can be made to work. I just want to reiterate that I think that this would raise the quality of posts of the advanced/expert posters, and probably bring back some others (hi hanp!).

 

I mean, I was reading through my posts from like 2005, and comparing them to my posts now, and it's clear that I used to put a lot more time and thought into each post that I made. Then I did the same with many of the other posters, and most of those who haven't just left the forums are the same. Sure, a lot of the responsibility for this is on ourselves, we don't have to make short answers and sarcastic answers, but I think that if there were some place to discuss hands without a huge amount of trolls it would be a lot easier and more motivating, and less disheartening.

 

Also, I noticed I don't post many new hands anymore. Most (but not all) of the best active posters seem to not post hands. I suspect this is because most of the discussion in the adv/exp threads will be meaningless for them. Even if they point to the relevant point, it will get into some convention or something. I know that I personally have a lot of pretty high level/interesting hands every day though that I discuss on AIM with people, and there are a lot of people on these forums who I would like to discuss them with as well, so I would love to post hands on this proposed new forum.

 

The last thing is that I think that on every forum right now it is possible for people to ask questions and get responses from experts. I think that if this new forum does happen it won't stop people from being able to ask questions and get answers, it just won't happen on that forum. I think it was TimG who suggested asking a question about something on another forum if they see something interesting on the new forum, and it's not like all the other sub forums will disappear all of the sudden. The current adv/exp forum and the beg/int forum and the sayc forum and the interesting bridge hands are all used like that currently, so I think this one could be different without losing any of the current value.

 

Also it's not like the best players that post on this forum would start ONLY posting on the new forum, let's be honest...we're all too addicted for that ;)

[y66]

My game is between intermediate and intermediate plus. Personally, I don't have a problem sifting through all the differing opinions.

 

If doing something along the lines JL proposes makes posting on this forum more attractive to experts, then I'm for it.

 

Would definitely not resent being restricted from posting on an experts only forum.