Sub forum for real experts?

[JLOL]

Since the advanced/expert forum is a complete joke where everyone posts anyways, I propose a forum that is somehow restricted where there can be some real bridge discussion between people who are advanced/expert without having to read through all the worthless drivel from the selfish unaware people who are not advanced/expert who just want to hear themselves talk.

 

This forum would not only be beneficial to the advanced/expert posters, it would be fun and perhaps even instructive for the beginners and intermediates to read a thread where good players discuss a hand (similar to how great master solvers club is, but better since there would be interaction between the people).

 

This concept has been used on poker forums with Barry Greenstein hosting a "red pro" forum where he restricts posting access to people who he knows to be good or who have a record of doing well.

 

This concept has even been done for an off topic forum, with the most prolific 2p2 poster "El Diablo" hosting a sub forum for people who basically don't say idiotic things. In that case you had to email to get access, and if you had no posting history of saying dumb things you got access, but if you made many bad posts you were then barred from posting.

 

The first concept is similar to the star system. I'm sure Fred/Uday would prefer to avoid a subjective system like that, and the star system would probably be bad for this purpose anyways (since it excludes many good players and includes bad players from remote places) but you could go the second route and delegate that responsibility to a well respected expert poster (franceshinden, jdonn, mikeh, inquiry all come to mind).

 

I KNOW that you might think this would be a PR disaster, and cause a lot of bad blood, and probably don't want to foster some elitist environment. That said the only people who feel bad blood will be those who ruin the advanced/expert forum from reaching it's true potential, ruining it not only for the adv/exp but for the others who could gain from reading that forum. These people should not be catered to, and historically this type of forum have been wildly popular.

 

This kind of forum might even bring new really good posters to the forum, and word of mouth about it might cause new people to register for BBO to read that forum. At the very least it will accomplish the original goal of having a forum for advanced/expert posters. It also might make people like han and cherdano who had some of the most posts on the forum and very high quality return.

 

Oh and just one stat to make my point: There have been ~62k posts on the adv/exp forum, way more than the ~29k for beginner/int and more than any other sub forum.

 

I think this idea would be beneficial to BBO, and beneficial to ALL readers of the forums except those who can't follow guidelines, and just great in general. I ask this idea in all seriousness even though my tone my have been really harsh.

 

I hope if you agree with this idea you will voice your support :D

[jdonn]

I'm all for some sort of way to monitor forums. Instead of a new forum for 'real' A/E, I was thinking of this idea:

 

Have a team of accepted volunteers who take any post that would start a new thread and allocate that first post to a specific forum, rather than letting any random wannabe expert post in A/E. Although I'm not saying people enjoy being babied, I'm sure they would get over it since all their threads would be posted, and it shouldn't matter to them in which forum.

 

Alternatively, such volunteers could simply be given the power to move threads from one forum to another, which would prevent a participant from having to wait for his initial post in a thread to be posted. I know Inquiry/Rain/Gerardo/Fred and maybe some others already have this power, so I say just spread it to a few more people whose job it is to keep the threads in each forum appropriate for that forum. The more I think about it this is probably the best idea to keep things in order.

 

Justin's idea is fine too, but I like my second one more since it would have the least disruption to the community in general but still accomplish the intended goal. Thoughts?

 

edit: How did I forget Uday lol. Brain fart.

[fred]

Thanks for an interesting idea. I wanted to let you know that your idea has been heard.

 

FWIW my initial reaction is: mixed feelings

 

I will follow this thread and see what other people think. If the response is generally favorable, I will discuss with my partners. If some respond unfavorably, it would be nice if there were no followup posts along the lines of "you don't like it because you suck and would not be allowed to participate". One of my main concerns about this idea is the potential for hurt feelings, so let's try not to hurt any feelings when we are discussing the idea :D

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[jillybean]

I like this idea. A B/I can spend hours reading these forums and not know which advice is good or bad. I’ve been around long enough to know whose responses I want to read and which to ignore but it still leaves a lot of information to filter through and perhaps I am skipping some valid responses.

 

I’d like to see this idea extended so that B/I’s can post questions to an expert panel, or to an moderator who can decide if the question warrants posting to the expert panel. All other, general, fun, questions, hands, polls can be posted in the B/I forum and free for all to respond.

[matmat]

I have just one concern here, and I am not sure how it could be addressed.

 

Say we do have a forum like JLOL proposes, where only a select set of people can post (I'm in favor of this), what if a B/I/someone not on the post list wants to ask a question to get better?

 

would there be another thread in another forum associated with that one for dumb people like me to ask questions?

 

would it make sense to perhaps just restrict who can open a thread? or do you take issue with a lot of the other content as well?

[HeavyDluxe]

What matmat said...

 

I'm somewhere between 'suck' and 'slightly better than suck'... I like the idea of a forum where I could read the thoughts of people who actually know what they're talking about rather than needing to always rely on my own (flawed) bozo-filter.

 

However, as an B/Iish player, I imagine such a forum would be far more helpful to me if I (and others like me) could occasionally ask a clarifying question on a given thread. "I'm glad the answer is '3♦, obv' but could you unpack that?" etc etc

 

I'm not as frustrated with crap posts as others, again because I don't have the discernment to always tell what's good and what's garbage. But, if it's bothering the solid posters (like Justin) who make this forum such a great place for people like me to learn, I'm even more in favor of a more restricted forum that serves them and keeps them posting.

[jillybean]

Say we do have a forum like JLOL proposes, where only a select set of people can post (I'm in favor of this), what if a B/I/someone not on the post list wants to ask a question to get better?

You could ask the question directly to the expert, the reply could then be made directly or the Q&A posted in the forum.

[jdonn]

In response to some of the concerns, I think the idea is to only restrict based on the original post in a thread. Anyone could reply or ask a question. It's not perfect but it's definitely an improvement.

 

No one is saying certain people don't have the right to start a thread or post in general. The forums (in general) would simply function better if posts were filed to the proper (specific) forum, that's all.

[inquiry]

Just a note, if my memory is correct, we had a "GOLD STAR" forum at one time. You had to have a bbo awarded gold star even to go to it. It died from lack of activity.

 

Maybe I dreamed it... I couldn't go there, as I don't have a gold star and it was from before I was an administrator.

[orlam]

I would enjoy reading this forum.

[1eyedjack]

I like the idea, even though I would not qualify to post in the sub forum.

But if I wanted to comment or raise a question, I could always start a thread in an open sub-forum and link to the post in the restricted forum.

[cnszsun]

I've rarely created new post in the 'A/E' forums, but i agree with jlol's idea totally.

[paulg]

My initial reaction is that this is less of a good idea than most seem to think.

 

Much as the Masters Bridge Club failed because there was insufficient interest, I feel that the forums need the input from the wide variety of posters to stimulate interest and discussion.

 

I suspect the vast majority of posts from our revered posters come in threads that are started by people who would not qualify to participate in such an elitist forum.

 

My feeling is that most of our best posters really enjoy helping less experienced players. Non-experts can ask interesting questions and I would not like to see them prevented from doing so and, if all the top posters restricted their activities to an expert forum, then the forums (as a whole) would really be poorer.

 

And my real concern is that you are really trying to prevent about 10 people posting.

 

Paul

[orlam]

I think one possible solution to the concerns about questions would be:

- the JLOLs and Mikehs can post directly

- everyone else like me can post, but the post does not appear until a moderator approves it (and the moderators would only approve on-topic questions). I know its not a thankful task for moderators, but at least it would be an objective task (is it a question? it it on-topic? both don't require juding the poster, or his bridge opinion, etc.) Otherwise, questions could just be posed in off-threads in another forum, I think that would work fine.

[1eyedjack]

No-one is suggesting that such postings to which cardsharp refers should be prevended; only that they should be prevented in the specified subforum. Experts would still be free to post in other subforums. Indeed no functionality that currently exists would be cut back.

[hotShot]

I don't think a expert forum will be useful to others. Experts among themselves won't have to explain basics and details to each other. If the normals can't even post their questions, the whole thing is useless to them.

 

It might be annoying for Justin and other experts to read the "crap" some of us produce, but what do they think that mere mortals feel finding a "LOL" or "xy, wtp?" as answer. People who start a topic at a forum, usually think there is a point and they have an urge for arguments to resolve their problem. "What XY said!" or "Agree with xy!" might be helpful to new members to evaluate the answers, but usually they are just a waste of the readers time, if they don't add a new argument to the discussion.

 

The number of forum members is growing fast and so is the number of posts. It used to be easy to follow every single thread. It's difficult now and it will be impossible before long. So people will post to the expert forum, if they want expert advise. This logic is stronger than any forum rule one can publish. If they can't post there, they will probably go somewhere else.

[paulg]

Part of my negativity to this proposal is that I believe that quality of the forums is actually very high, compared to others on the Internet.

 

And, to a large degree, it is self-regulating.

 

I have posted questions that I think are tough decisions and quite interesting that have received two responses: others, that I think really deserved just a couple of comments, have received hundreds. I'd clearly be hopeless as a moderator and I'm unsure that others would be better.

 

And my real concern is that the quality of the forums overall would drop, if our best posters tended to migrate to one sub forum that then proved less active than the others.

 

Paul

[Walddk]

And my real concern is that the quality of the forums overall would drop, if our best posters tended to migrate to one sub forum that then proved less active than the others.

 

Paul

I share that view. Generally speaking I wouldn't mind if there is a sub-forum for experts, but my biggest concern is that you are going to hurt some people's feelings. Who is going to determine who is qualified to post and who is not? And on what grounds?

 

It's an impossible task really, and there is no doubt in my mind that you will include some who should not be there and exclude others who should. Just like the *Star* you see or don't see in user profiles.

 

Roland

[helene_t]

Alternatively, such volunteers could simply be given the power to move threads from one forum to another

As I see it, the main problem is that serious threads get spoiled by off-topic and/or low-quality responses. Which forum they are posted in is less of an issue IMHO.

 

I think there are only two models that would achieve the desired goal without putting an unrealistic burden on moderators:

- Restrict the A/E forum to real experts. Since I would not qualify myself I am obviously against. But we could make another forum called "questions to the experts" where everyone could post but if a thread evolved into a long discussion with real and fake experts mixed up, someone might post a link to a thread about the topic in the a/e forum. Although this might work, I don't think I would like it. I know what impact it would have on my own behaviour in the hypothetical case that I came close to qualify for the a/e forum: I would start kissing the moderators asses, and once I got the permission I would stop asking stupid questions about cardplay and hand evaluation and restrict my own postings to topics like T-walsh and Raptor where the chance of making a gaffe is smaller.

- A thump up/down feature like yahoo answers. That is ideal but I suspect Invision does not support it.

 

And my real concern is that you are really trying to prevent about 10 people posting.

Dunno. We have (had) a couple of semi-trolls who think they are experts but post completely clueless advice, yet with an authoritative-sounding tone which may confuse people who don't know them. If that's the main problem then a larger and more active moderator team could solve it. Also it would help if people learned to ignore what deserves to be ignored.

 

Then we have people like myself whose opinion nobody cares about but (I would like to think) do little harm and occasionally can contribute with something from their own field of expertise such as, in my case, probability theory.

[TimG]

I think a moderated forum would be useful, but I also think it would be more work for the moderators than people expect if it is going to be done well.

 

It is not enough to hand select the opening posts. Non-expert inquiry in a thread is useful and necessary. But, non-expert answers in a thread are a bad thing. I don't think either a system by which just the opening posts were moderated or a system by which only a select few could post would work. Both the opening posts and the follow-up would need to be moderated for the system to work.

 

Selecting the "experts" could also be a very delicate process. There are some posters who have an attitude of "I'm doing my service to the community by posting interesting problems and answering questions, I ought to be more appreciated". Even if these posters have something good to add instruction-wise, the advice may not be well received because of the attitude. The "expert" selection process ought to involve not just bridge expertise, but also a personality or community factor.

 

As something of an aside, I am often amused by the jlall groupie factor. We've all seen a question posed that receives a half dozen "I pass because" answers. Then Justin chimes in with "I can't understand passing, I'd bid 2S because" and there are suddenly a bunch of "2S, wtp" posts from an often predictable group of posters. Someday I'd like access to Justin's account so I could post a few "wrong" answers just to see how strong this groupie factor is.

 

I think it is important to clearly set out the goals of a moderated or limited access sub-forum. Is the objective to have a forum for expert discussion of expert issues, or is the objective to have a forum where B/I can get reliably good answers to B/I questions.

 

I think of myself as being good enough to filter the good responses from the bad even if I am often not good enough to provide the good answers. So, maybe it's not really the A/E forum that needs moderation -- the advanced and expert players are capable of filtering the responses -- but the B/I forum. It is the B/I that may be unable to recognize the good answers from the bad, so it would be of more benefit to the community if the B/I were moderated so that the advice given there were more reliable. Unreliable advice in the A/E forum being more recognizable to the A/E players reading the forum, it is less important to moderate it.

 

If you're looking for an expert forum for expert discussion of expert issues, I'd suggest lobbying for implementation of an "ignore" feature or more diligently ignoring unworthy posts.

[matmat]

I guess maybe I am not concerned about people's feeling as some of you are. I don't think bursting someone's bubble by pointing out that they are not, in fact, advanced/expert might be a good thing, even if it hurts a little bit. If such a forum existed I may even make it a point to try to improve my game enough to be allowed to post in it :lol:

 

The sort of stuff that the OP is referring to happens all the time in some schools where the teachers lecture to the below average kids to make sure they don't fall too far behind, and the brighter kids sit there bored to death. I don't think the forums should foster this sort of system, if there is a way to improve it.

 

Also, it's not really fun trying to wade through unclear, poorly written, obscure, off-topic essays in the A/E forum.

[matmat]

"I'm doing my service to the community by posting interesting problems and answering questions, I ought to be more appreciated".

that reminds me of the "you must like me and appreciate me because I donate time to direct tournaments" attitude...

 

lol

:lol:

 

(sorry, off topic. couldn't help it)

[matmat]

If you're looking for an expert forum for expert discussion of expert issues, I'd suggest lobbying for implementation of an "ignore" feature or more diligently ignoring unworthy posts.

that's one possibility.

 

I've also seen other forums having "is this post useful to you" features and a visible rating. additionally individual posters could be given ratings by the forum readers.

 

i've not thought through this much, nor do I know how well such schemes work at other forums.

[sireenb]

This is an interesting idea and I think it may add value to the forums if applied properly...but let me digress first...

 

Log onto BBO at any time and you will find thousands there, whereas very few people can be found at the forums. Any modification to the forums should have the goal of increasing forum participation. We need more people here, even if they only read and don't post. Once a player makes it a habit to visit the forums, he/she may eventually post something and discover that it was not so scary after all!

 

I started reading the forums a couple of months after I started playing on BBO. I wanted to get a better idea about 'mainstream' BBO bridge. When I moved out of my circle of 'a few trusted partners' and started jumping to any table I found that many concepts that seemed so obvious to me were quite unheard of here. Furthermore, some conventions that I would not dare to play with anybody except after a firm agreement seemed 'default'. The standard BBO convention cards are abbreviated so I hoped that the forums would provide more detailed information.

 

I kept coming back because I love reading about anything to do with Bridge. Don't tell my partners but I read the forums when I am dummy :lol:

 

Did the forums supply answers? Well, there is a lot of elaboration on the systems but I doubt that many people have read any of that! However, the discussions have highlighted some areas where there is no consensus and this is very helpful. It is good to know when even a BBO expert may or may not be on your wavelength! Areas where there is consensus are again instructive (which is why I do not mind 'I agree with so-and-so' posts and I love polls).

 

Is that why other people visit the forums? I cannot speak for anybody else but it seems (from the posts) that many (like me) visit the forums to learn and some visit the forums to help others learn with a very small overlap between the two groups.

 

Now back to the Expert forum. A limited write-access and/or moderated forum targeting expert topics would be great as that may be a good place to search for value-added posts rather than sifting through zillions of threads to stumble upon something like that. If the subjects and discussions are of high quality, the forum may well attract new readers.

 

However, I strongly believe that such a forum should be something 'extra' on top of the other existing forums, and should be more concerned with general topics rather than Q&A sessions about specific hands that have a tendency to veer off in all sorts of directions sometimes completely losing the main point of the hand.

 

As for the Beginner/Intermediate and Advanced/Expert forums…. Many people post questions there for advice. When a player posts a question he/she does not know if the answer is in the beginner or expert domain. It may seem obvious to 99.9% of posters that a question is trivial but they should understand that the person who asked the question did not know that. For every person that who dares to ask a question there may be dozens of shy players anxious for the reply who are really happy that somebody else took the initiative and asked! Just imagine how these people feel when abuse is hurled at the initiator of the thread because it belongs somewhere else in the forums!

 

The same question may have a different answer depending on which forum triggered it. In the Beginner/Intermediate forum it is better to keep things black and white whereas the other forum has room for gray area elaboration and discussion. What I am trying to say is that the filtering should be for the audience, and not on the questions! Any question in the Advanced/Expert forum with only a couple of replies is probably a simple question so there is no need to even mention it :)

 

I have been teaching Bridge (and sometimes other stuff) for many years and it is very important to treat every question with respect otherwise ALL students just stop asking questions. Treating the question with respect does not necessarily mean answering it, but it does mean you cannot object to the fact that the person asked. This may be one of the problems with these forums. I think people tend to read a bit before they post anything, to get a feel for the place. Unfortunately; anybody reading, even a little bit, is bound to come across the jeers and sneers and that may well put them off asking or saying anything forever.

 

Looking forward to browsing this Expert forum if it ever materializes...

 

Sireen

[Winstonm]

Sounds to me like you are describing an invitation-only forum.