Apollo81 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 (p) 1d (2c) x (3c) 4h p p (5c) p is opener's pass forcing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TylerE Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 I don't think it's forcing, since opener has strong ways of getting to 4♥ over 3♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Definitely forcing. It's not just about what we have bid, look at the opponents' auction, RHO of opener's tried to stop in 3 and let himself be pushed to 5. The odds he is simply walking the dog on some huge hand are teeny compared to the odds he was just hoping we wouldn't bid game and is sacrificing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 In an ideal world I think yes. This is clearly a sacrifice and when the opponents are definitely sacrificing I play forcing passes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOL Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Forcing. Why did opener bid 4♥? It makes no sense that he was trying to sacrifice. Sacrifice over what? 4♥ is below 5♣, the opponents have already exchanged plenty of information, and it sounds like the strength is equally divided (or opener's side has more). So 4♥ was bid to make. This by itself is usually enough to create a forcing pass. Also, if opener has some freak hand where he was hoping to make 4♥ based on shape (like a 5-6 in the reds) he probably would've already bid 5♦ over 5♣. So the pass suggests he was bidding to make based on values. This reinforces the idea that pass should be forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Definitely forcing. It's not just about what we have bid, look at the opponents' auction, RHO of opener's tried to stop in 3 and let himself be pushed to 5. The odds he is simply walking the dog on some huge hand are teeny compared to the odds he was just hoping we wouldn't bid game and is sacrificing. Agree with this reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Clearly forcing. For reasons explained by Josh and others above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OleBerg Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Not forcing. Opener should be allowed to gamble 4♥ with playing strength, something like: ♠ x♥ Kxxx♦ AQJxxx♣ xx A double by opener would not be penalty, but simply show that 4♥ were bid to made (typically (semi-)balanced and strong). Sometimes partner can bid 5♥ with the right values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Pass over 5C shows 0-1c club(CA), not particularly looking higher. X if not. Cannot imagine partner passing here so acting as 'forcing pass' even not defined such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmunte1 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Obviously forcing as long as we bid a voluntary game and opps are sacrificing to level 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 yes, forcing but I would add: focing unless opponents are vulnerable and we are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uday Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Did the negative X guarantee 4+4+ in the majors? The Master Solvers Club in the Bridge World seems to be full of people who blithely make such doubles with 43 in the majors. If it didn't, would opener still jump to 4H with only 4 hearts? What would opener do with a light shapely 6-5 hand with 5 hearts? How light could negative doubler be for his double ( with perfect shape? ) I'm of course coming around to claiming that since responder might have "nothing" , and since opener must bid game here with all light 6-5s and well as with more balanced hands with extras, it is weird to think that the FP could be intelligently used here. Another way to look at it is: IF this is a FP, opener is inviting 5. But has he shown anything about his hand type? How can responder make an intelligent decision? FPs dont make any sense unless the guy being "F'd" has some basis for a decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InTime Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 100% forcing. Look at the auction. The 1♦ opener's partner gave a negative double (showing some life). The 2♣ overcaller's partner did not give a cue-bid raise to 3♣ - so his raise must be limited. Obviously, the 5♣ is a sacrifice.If partner would wanted to sacrifice, he would first bid 3♥ and then 4♥ if needed. 4♥ must be a strong bid. With his pass he is looking towards his partner for help. He has done his work. Partner must now act.Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 No offense to anyone but it's really awful to think this isn't a forcing pass. Look at LHO's (assuming we are the negative doubler) bidding!!! "I would like to play this hand in 3♣."..."Now that the opponents have bid game, I would like to play this hand in 5♣." He is sacrificing! So pass is forcing. The observation that the opponents are sacrificing is 100% indisputable. To think pass isn't forcing you have to completely ignore that. Everyone so far who has said not forcing has tried to analyze what our partner has, or what he could have done. But how our side got to game is 100% irrelevent, you don't even have to consider it. The only reason to consider it now is to decide what partner might have for his forcing pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uday Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'm convinced but i can't UNDO my vote :) I was sure I was right until I spoke to FG, who said pretty much what Jdonn said. It is an FP situation bec. of the weird 5C call, which trumps everything else. Had overcaller bid 5C (not what happened here) FG says it would not create a force. Glad this didn't happen to me at the table before I ran into this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_KARLUK Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Not really. Okay jumped to 4♥, then strong free rebid likely 5-5 in reds. But why could not use cheaper 4♣ ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Yeah. File under: 1. Weird auctions are forcing (like some yahoo reraises a preempt or makes a 2nd raise). 2. When a passed hand sacs, it creates a force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'm convinced but i can't UNDO my vote :) I was sure I was right until I spoke to FG, who said pretty much what Jdonn said. It is an FP situation bec. of the weird 5C call, which trumps everything else. Had overcaller bid 5C (not what happened here) FG says it would not create a force. Glad this didn't happen to me at the table before I ran into this thread. Sorry if I was hard on anyone. :) I would definitely agree with you (meaning your original answer) if west had made a stronger raise (like say 2NT showing limit raise+ in clubs), since then he could have been intending to bid 5 all along. Or if, as Fred said, the overcaller had bid 5 himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OleBerg Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 No offense to anyone but it's really awful to think this isn't a forcing pass. Look at LHO's (assuming we are the negative doubler) bidding!!! "I would like to play this hand in 3♣."..."Now that the opponents have bid game, I would like to play this hand in 5♣." He is sacrificing! So pass is forcing. The observation that the opponents are sacrificing is 100% indisputable. To think pass isn't forcing you have to completely ignore that. Everyone so far who has said not forcing has tried to analyze what our partner has, or what he could have done. But how our side got to game is 100% irrelevent, you don't even have to consider it. The only reason to consider it now is to decide what partner might have for his forcing pass. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I spoke to FG, who said pretty much what Jdonn said.[what jdonn said]LOLLOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_KARLUK Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Sorry, I bet most of members here are well aware about Forcing Pass positions and their methods. Anyways, how abt to refresh such a link if those ideas are still "on" ? http://www.bridgehands.com/F/Forcing_Pass.htm Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted February 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Forcing. Why did opener bid 4♥? It makes no sense that he was trying to sacrifice. Sacrifice over what? 4♥ is below 5♣, the opponents have already exchanged plenty of information, and it sounds like the strength is equally divided (or opener's side has more). So 4♥ was bid to make. This by itself is usually enough to create a forcing pass. Also, if opener has some freak hand where he was hoping to make 4♥ based on shape (like a 5-6 in the reds) he probably would've already bid 5♦ over 5♣. So the pass suggests he was bidding to make based on values. This reinforces the idea that pass should be forcing. Should x AQxxx AKxxxx x make a forcing pass or should it bid 5♦? I would have made a forcing pass on this hand and sat for a double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Hi, opener did bid 4H with the intention to make,at least a resonable amout of time, so Pass isforcing. I doubt it makes sense to let them play 5Cundoubled, so Pass is forcing.Opener may not be sure, if he wants to play5H or if 5Cx offers a better chance. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Should x AQxxx AKxxxx x make a forcing pass or should it bid 5♦? I would have made a forcing pass on this hand and sat for a double. I'd bid with that hand. If partner has ♥K and out we have excellent play for 5♥. The problem is that I expect partner to double with random balanced hands when I make a forcing pass in this auction. Usually my 4♥ bid is based on values and partner will not think "wow I don't have any defense, maybe we're not beating 5♣, I should bid." Here I'd expect that partner doubles almost any time he doesn't have singleton club (which means almost every time I hold a 1561 pattern). This will be the wrong decision most of the time given the actual 5-6 hand. I know it is popular to make forcing passes with a very wide range of hands because we can then blame partner for the final decision if it goes poorly. In fact a while back, I started a thread about what a forcing pass "showed" in various auctions and everyone pretty much refused to answer! But realistically, we have to gauge the odds that partner's action will be correct. Here I think partner will expect something on the order of a strong balanced hand or 1453, and will double on a lot of patterns where 5♥ is cold and 5♣ is making or only one off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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