Hanoi5 Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 You hold this beauty: ♠652♥T652♦KJ53♣T5 Exact spots. You're vulnerable, they're not. Bidding goes: 1♣ Pa 1NT Pa2♠ Pa 4♣ Pa4♠ X Pa ??? Apparently 4♣ was not alerted, but it surely was some sort of cue-bid. What would you bid if: a. You were told at some point that opener's bidding indicated a 6-5 in the black suits with a strong hand (which I guess is the normal meaning). b. You were told by your screen-mate (responder), 'Are you going to pass? It's a 5-6 strong hand, you know...' c. You and your partner are World Class players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFA Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 I don't understand the explanations, can you be more specific? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 We've passed throughout and partner doubles 4♠ red vs white.What on earth do I care for opps explanations here. Partner told me he's beating 4♠, surely I pass. Coming in with a t/o double now is totally insane - then he'd have doubled 2♠. Obviously opps screwed up somehow, or I'm looking for a new partner, world class or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dicklont Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 A: PassB: Pass, but now I'm wondering what's happeningC: That would only be on BBO were I can choose my own level, or in my dreams. What am I supposed to do other than pass?When partner wants me to choose a red suit he bids 4NT, now he expects it's going down. As a world class player I would probably have specific agreements about this situation and then I would know what to do without a doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 If there turn out to be 18 spades in the pack I call the director. For now I just trust p. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OleBerg Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 a) Pass.b) Pass, and scout for nearby directors, in case dummy reveals that the comments were coffe-housing.c) I already said I'd pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 c) I already said I'd pass. I admire your modesty :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOL Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Apparently 4♣ was not alerted, but it surely was some sort of cue-bid. What would you bid if: LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Apparently 4♣ was not alerted, but it surely was some sort of cue-bid. Surely? I'd expect it to be some sort of good hand for play in clubs. The old "natural limit bid" thing... a. Passb. Pass, and potentially call the TD for a coffee-housing PP (depends on how well I know my opponents)c. How is this supposed to change whether I pass or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 What would you bid if ... You and your partner are World Class players. How would I know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 What would you bid if ... You and your partner are World Class players. How would I know? Hehe good point. Obviously if everyone knew what they would do if they were a world class player, everyone would be a world class player! Anyway I have no idea why this problem is here, what could I do but pass? Even if partner pulled the wrong card and meant to pass I don't see what I could do but pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OleBerg Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Hard to come up with a distribution where the bidding makes sense; this is the best I can do: [hv=d=e&v=n&n=sakha987d1098762ca&w=sqj1098hkqdckj9876&e=s743hj43daq4cq432&s=s652h10652dkj53c105]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]This assumes NS has some suit quality restrictions on overcalls. Can't help thinking this silly thought: Maybe, when the trey was pushed under after the 1NT call, the top card became slightly tilted, so that LHO thinks the bidding has gone: 1♣ - 1♠2♠ - 4♣4♠ (X) Opponents have something like a 21-count 7-card-fit, and partner is stacked! To silly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 [hv=d=s&v=e&n=st73hk74dq84caj62&w=sq94haj3d962ckq87&e=s652ht652dkj53ct5&s=sakj8hq98dat7c943]399|300|Scoring: MP[/hv] This was the full hand. East bid 5♦, which was doubled and paid only 800, though it was a complete zero for E/W. E/W complained that West was told that 2♠ was a reverse and that it showed a 6-5 and that was the reason for bidding 5♦. They wanted 4♠x -2 as the result... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 They wanted 4♠x -2 as the result... I think they should change their request to getting some sort of deal on a partnership lobotomy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Obviously opps screwed up somehow, or I'm looking for a new partner, world class or not. I don't understand this attitude. Surely your criteria for a good partner does not include "never blunders". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Obviously opps screwed up somehow, or I'm looking for a new partner, world class or not. I don't understand this attitude. Surely your criteria for a good partner does not include "never blunders". Huh? Pleas don't quote out of context. What I meant was perfectly clear if you read my complete post. There's a great difference between occasional blunders that we all make (me and my partners included) than the insanity I was talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 We've passed throughout and partner doubles 4♠ red vs white.What on earth do I care for opps explanations here. Partner told me he's beating 4♠, surely I pass. Coming in with a t/o double now is totally insane - then he'd have doubled 2♠. Obviously opps screwed up somehow, or I'm looking for a new partner, world class or not. Well, here's the whole quote. Sure sounds to me like you're looking for a new partner if your current partner's judgment on this hand proves incorrect. Even if partner's judgment on this hand amounts to a colossal brain fart, I like to think that a partnership will survive one of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichMor Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 [hv=d=s&v=e&n=st73hk74dq84caj62&w=sq94haj3d962ckq87&e=s652ht652dkj53ct5&s=sakj8hq98dat7c943]399|300|Scoring: MP[/hv] This was the full hand. East bid 5♦, which was doubled and paid only 800, though it was a complete zero for E/W. E/W complained that West was told that 2♠ was a reverse and that it showed a 6-5 and that was the reason for bidding 5♦. They wanted 4♠x -2 as the result... Yes, NS should get the result for 4♠X down 2. Yes, EW should get the result for -800. Seems only right that both pairs get a bad score :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Yes, NS should get the result for 4♠X down 2. Yes, EW should get the result for -800. Seems only right that both pairs get a bad score :P If the EW result was due to (I forget the exact wording) a stupid, ridiculous, irrational, wild, gambling action, then NS should not have their score changed. All you can do to them is give some kind of procedural penalty for a bad explanation, as well as for responder's extraneous comment (b. in the original post) if you care to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Doesn't the decision to adjust the score depend on North - South's partnership agreement regarding the definition of the 2♠ bid? If I had to guess what happened, I'd assume the following: 1. South doesn't have a clue how to bid and2. North wasn't in on the joke Note: The following is all complete specualtion, but I've seen it happen a lot: North - South probably agreed that they were playing SAYC or 2/1 or standard or some other convenient system summary. Hell, that might not have even agreed to a system... North knows that the sequence 1♣ - 1N - 2♠ promises real shape When asked about the meaning of the bid, he gave the correct explanation according to the system he thought they were playing South is clueless, probably doesn't know any of the systems that he processes to play, made what he thought was the systematic bid, but actually misbid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOL Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Yes, NS should get the result for 4♠X down 2. Yes, EW should get the result for -800. Seems only right that both pairs get a bad score :P If the EW result was due to (I forget the exact wording) a stupid, ridiculous, irrational, wild, gambling action, then NS should not have their score changed. All you can do to them is give some kind of procedural penalty for a bad explanation, as well as for responder's extraneous comment (b. in the original post) if you care to. This is incorrect. In fact most split rulings are because one pair forgot to play bridge after they were damaged so they keep the score, but the offending side gets their score rolled back since they can't benefit from the damage. The really stupid bid or play might well have not occurred if there hadn't been damage to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Normally whatever score you give to NS is irrelevant since they are not gonna get above average anyway. Regardless of the laws (wich I doubt should damage them anyway), most TDs would just let them enjoy their success wich encourages them to keep playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 But in this case I think the 'stupid bid' was 5♦ and so E/W should have that. N/S will be benefitting from the absurdity in East's bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Yes, NS should get the result for 4♠X down 2. Yes, EW should get the result for -800. Seems only right that both pairs get a bad score :unsure: If the EW result was due to (I forget the exact wording) a stupid, ridiculous, irrational, wild, gambling action, then NS should not have their score changed. All you can do to them is give some kind of procedural penalty for a bad explanation, as well as for responder's extraneous comment (b. in the original post) if you care to. This is incorrect. In fact most split rulings are because one pair forgot to play bridge after they were damaged so they keep the score, but the offending side gets their score rolled back since they can't benefit from the damage. The really stupid bid or play might well have not occurred if there hadn't been damage to begin with.My point is a misexplanation is not automatically damage. If I open 1NT and my partner says 12-14 and it's really 15-17, and LHO does something stupid like overcall 4♥ on xxx Kxxxxx Qx xx and we kill him, and he says he wouldn't have done that if he knew 1NT was 15-17, I keep my score. That's the same to me in this case, there was a misexplanation (or misbid?) without which 5♦X couldn't have occured, but it should never have occured anyway since only someone hopped up on some leafy plant would bid 5♦, so NS benefit since EW stupidity is all that damaged them. A situation of split scores is different. Say when partner wrongly announces 12-14 the opponents use their system over weak notrumps to reach a normal 4♥ game, and one of them plays it like a doofus and goes down. And say if they knew 1NT was strong they would never have bid, and 1NT would have gone down. That's the split score situation where I get 1NT down and they get 4♥ down. I think I confused things by (mis)quoting part of the law that leads to split scores when I wasn't trying to refer to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 We've passed throughout and partner doubles 4♠ red vs white.What on earth do I care for opps explanations here. Partner told me he's beating 4♠, surely I pass. Coming in with a t/o double now is totally insane - then he'd have doubled 2♠. Obviously opps screwed up somehow, or I'm looking for a new partner, world class or not. Well, here's the whole quote. Sure sounds to me like you're looking for a new partner if your current partner's judgment on this hand proves incorrect. Even if partner's judgment on this hand amounts to a colossal brain fart, I like to think that a partnership will survive one of those. Don't get me wrong then. If partner made an unsuccessful penallty double, that's definitely no problem. Anyone can mis-evaluate. However, if he thought he made a t/o double, intending to find a save, that's not closely related to bridge.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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