YBTJ

[Phil]

Was curious if anyone had a creative idea to get to 6N on this layout:

 

[hv=w=sakjxxhkqxxdxcxxx&e=sqtxxhajxdakxcaxx]266|100|Scoring: MPs[/hv]

 

Our auction:

 

1♠ - 2N

3♦ - 3♥

3♠ - 4♣

4N - 5♦

5♥ - 6♦

6♠

 

Thanks, Phil

[rogerclee]

I think you will never get there with anything resembling a normal Jacoby 2N structure, East has to respond 2♣. I initially thought that this was sort of a weird bid, but it seems clearly right to me now to start with 2♣, you will only have small losses when opener bids 2♠ in exchange for generally better auctions if opener can rebid 2 of a red suit.

 

Opener will pattern out as 5413 and still have room to show good hearts, and after that, East can put it in 6NT.

[JLOL]

no

[mtvesuvius]

Click on 6NT. Otherwise no.

[jdonn]

I agree with Clee that it's a whole lot easier after 2♣ than after 2NT. But as long as I have a reasonable 2NT structure I'm sure I would have started that way. But maybe he is right that 2NT is not best, I just know I would have bid it.

[JLOL]

This 2C talk is really silly to me if the point is to find out partners shape and then hopefully take control. When my whole hand is aces and kings and the queen of trumps I am not looking to take control, I'm looking for partner to do so. When I have a flat 18 I am not looking to take control and drive to slam, I am hoping to have a cooperative auction where we decide whether or not we have enough for slam. In my ideal world I get to show 4 trumps and a balanced hand, then I get to show 2 slam tries, then I get to show 3 aces, the trump queen, and the DK. My ideal world is not learning partners shape and whether they have some extras and then bidding keycard, or having partner bid keycard without knowing about my potentially very important 4th trump.

 

Sorry that the HJ, the only card you were not able to show, was the key to this hand because the problem is getting to 6N rather than 6S, but you cannot mastermind from the beginning unless you know what the "problem" on the hand is going to be.

 

Also I cannot construct an auction where we know for sure partner has KQ of hearts even if we start with 2C unless you are playing rexford style cuebidding.

[fred]

While some may find it interesting from an academic point to try to construct an intelligent auction to get to 6NT (I am not one of these some), I personally think it is highly impractical to take such considerations seriously.

 

On this sort of combination you should design your system to get you to the right number of spades. If you can judge accurately between 4S (or 5S if necessary), 6S, and 7S most of the time, you will be doing very well.

 

Trying to cater your system in this area to the possibility of 6NT or 7NT is likely to take away from your ability to decide how many spades you should be in (and this will be the crux of the matter on the vast majority of similar deals). Even if you manage to construct a system that allows you to intelligently bring notrump into play without compromising your spade-bidding, you still have to remember that system. I would suggest you use the limited number of brain cells that you have to devote to system memory for some other more important area of bidding.

 

If you play good methods sometimes you will get lucky and actually know you belong in notrump, but IMO that's about as much concern as you should be giving to this matter.

 

I suppose I am trying to say the same thing as JLOL in a different way.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Phil]

Also I cannot construct an auction where we know for sure partner has KQ of hearts even if we start with 2C unless you are playing rexford style cuebidding.

1♠ - 2♣

2♥ - 2♠

3♦ - 3♥ (serious cue?)

4♥*

 

Italian-style cue showing 2 of the top 3.

 

This is the only conceivable way that I can see.

[rogerclee]

Fred, I never meant that reaching 6NT was one of the primary reasons I like 2♣, though it works out well on this hand. I just thought that it was more likely to gain information at a lower level so that I could hear more about partner's hand.

 

Justin, I would agree with you that if I were sure I could tell partner all these things about my hand, I would. However, I'm not sure why the auction should time out this way. Over a 4♠ signoff after partner shows slam interest or a 4♥ cuebid, we can continue to describe our hand at the 5-level, but I think you will agree that partner will not get all the information we wanted him to get. In my opinion it is better to just listen to what partner has to say and try to make an informed guess with this kind of hand. It was actually quite difficult for me to construct a wide variety of hands where my fourth trump is very important to partner, given that I am actually 4333. I found that in fact it is more likely that I want to know what partner's hand looks like, since the play will probably involve ruffing twice in partner's hand when he has a 4-card side suit.

 

I would actually like to see some hands where responding to 2NT will work out better than 2♣ in a style where we usually open 1NT with 15-17 balanced and 5♠. I am not denying that they exist, I would just like to more carefully consider the problems with bidding 2♣ here.

[orlam]

Also I cannot construct an auction where we know for sure partner has KQ of hearts even if we start with 2C unless you are playing rexford style cuebidding.

1♠ - 2♣

2♥ - 2♠

3♦ - 3♥ (serious cue?)

4♥*

 

Italian-style cue showing 2 of the top 3.

 

This is the only conceivable way that I can see.

Even if 4♥ doesn't promise KQ, wouldn't the followup

4N-5H

5N-6H

clarify ♥KQ? Since the ♥K is already known, shouldn't the "king reply" now show the queen?

[hotShot]

One "reasonable" way to get to 6NT is:

 

1♠ - 2NT

4♥*- 4NT *good 4 card side suit 2of3 top honors

** - 6NT **2of5

 

After this sequence 5♠, 4♥, 2♦ and 1♣ = 12 Tricks in NT.

 

Now let the experts tell you why openers hand is not a 4♥ bid.

[jdonn]

One "reasonable" way to get to 6NT is:

 

1♠ - 2NT

4♥*- 4NT *good 4 card side suit 2of3 top honors

** - 6NT **2of5

 

After this sequence 5♠, 4♥, 2♦ and 1♣ = 12 Tricks in NT.

 

Now let the experts tell you why openers hand is not a 4♥ bid.

Because that is not what 4♥ shows?

[Fluffy]

If you don't bid 2NT with this, you might better start playing 1♠-2NT to show clubs and 1♠-2♣ as artificial balanced. Maybe not a wild idea.

 

I don't find the way to reach 6NT

[Hanoi5]

Being the ♥J (or hearts 3-3) what gives 12 tricks I think it'll be a MP decision to go to 6NT instead of 6♠, and not a very good one at that.

[fred]

This is a question that matters:

 

If you reverse the minor suit holdings in either of the 2 hands, can you bid to 7S and know you are making it while stopping in 6S and knowing that is all you can make on the actual layout?

 

If you can answer "yes" to that question then, as a lucky (and irrelevant IMO) side effect, you will probably know that you belong in 6NT on the actual layout.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[gnasher]

It uses methods that I've never used in their entirety, and wouldn't necessarily choose to play anyway, but this works:

 

1♠-2NT

3♣-3♦    any minimum / asking

3♠-3NT   short diamonds (1) / asking for shape

4♦-4♥    5413 (2) / RKCB

5♣-5♥    2 without / Spiral (skipping one step, so starting with ♥K)

5NT-6♦   ♥K but not ♣K (3) / Spiral (skipping ♦K)

6♠-6NT   ♥Q but not ♣Q / signoff

 

If responder had Q10xx AJx Axx AKx, it would go the same, except that responder's final call would be 7♠. After 5NT responder realises that AKxxx Kxxx K xxx is no use to him, so he bypasses ♦K and asks about ♥Q.

 

(1) The steps go: short clubs/5332, short diamonds, short hearts, 5224/6223, 5242/6232, 5422/6322, 7222

(2) I made this bit up, but if I played 3NT as a shape enquiry the first three steps would be: any 6-card suit, 5413, 5314

(3) Side cards are shown in order of opener's known lengths in the suits, so in this case hearts, clubs, diamonds

[Fluffy]

If you can answer "yes" to that question then, as a lucky (and irrelevant IMO) side effect, you will probably know that you belong in 6NT on the actual layout.

I think there are ways to ask questions about ♥KQ, but the possitve answer (for the one I know at least) is at the 7 level, so when you know you can make 6NT you might be too high.

[kenrexford]

Because it was brought up...

 

If I start with 1♠-P-2♣, trumps will be set after 2♥-P-2♠. Then, Opener's first cue will be 3♦, showing two of the top three spades (because he did not denial cue 2NT), no club card (because he did not cue 3♣), and a shortness diamond control (because Responder is looking at the A-K).

 

At this point, Responder knows that the likely contract will be 6NT unless Opener has a fifth heart. I don't see how this would be that complicated or that obscure. An easy follow-up would be a simple 3♥ cue by Responder and a 3NT cue by Opener (serious without solid spades), although that may be rich, or a less aggressive 4♥ cue by Opener and THEN a 5♥ call by Responder.

 

I also don't see how difficult it would be to reach a grand with the "right stiff." If Responder had reversed minors, he could just bid 5♥ at thois point, which I play as an asking bid, and find the two heart honors. Or, he could screw around, hear a heart cue from Opener, and then do this.

 

If the minors were reversed for Opener, Opener would first deny a club card at the three-level (bypassing 3♣) and then could showthe stiff by cuebidding the control at the four-level. No problem.

[mikeh]

Well, in answer to Fred's question (and to the original question) relays make it trivial.. using 2♣ as an artificial gf relay, opener gets to show, in sequence, 4+ hearts, 5431 (or 5413 in the original), 4 controls, the spade AK and heart KQ (in one step)... and no Queen in the 3 card minor.. now responder has an easy call to place the contract.

[Finch]

Playing my normal methods after a 1S opening I will find out in both my normal partnerships that opener is:

 

5313 plus a non-diamond 13th card, with the AK of spades, the KQ of hearts and neither the K or Q of clubs nor the singleton K of diamonds.

 

At that point I'll know that both slams are making 12 tricks opposite 5413 or 6313 and neither likely to be opposite 5314. If opener has AKJxx KQx x J9xx then 6S is fractionally better, J109x and 6S is cold but 6NT isn't.

 

I could invent better methods for this hand if you want, but that's real life.

 

Obviously I could invent an auction that will work brilliantly on this hand, for example:

1S - 2C (game forcing)

2H (natural) - 3H

3NT (spade cue) - 4NT (RKCB in hearts)

5S (two with) - 6C (ask)

6D (king of spades, not the queen of clubs)

6NT

 

(at matchpoints, you have the agreement that asking above the slam level may be looking for 6NT rather than 6M, not that it's a grand slam try).

 

But why would I choose to respond 2C on the off-chance that partner has KQxx in hearts and should play in 6NT? I'd rather show a game forcing spade raise, because it makes the auction nice and easy if partner has a suitable hand to ask with.

[kenrexford]

But why would I choose to respond 2C on the off-chance that partner has KQxx in hearts and should play in 6NT? I'd rather show a game forcing spade raise, because it makes the auction nice and easy if partner has a suitable hand to ask with.

I thought the same thing. I usually bid 2NT with a perfect hand, which for me means all external primes, and the heart Jack is not that impressive.

 

So, suppose 1♠-P-2NT as the start.

 

If I were using my preferred methods, Opener would bid 3♣ to show a non-bust splinter (with a bust, he'd bid 3♠). He will also not have 5-5 in the majors and a stiff diamond, with which he'd bid 4♥ directly over 2NT.

 

Responder would ask: 3♦.

 

Opener would show the diamond stiff (3NT).

 

Responder could then cue 4♣ for more info, and Responder could cue the heart King.

 

After RKCB (4NT 1430), Opener shows two without (5♥).

 

Now, Responder makes a King ask, and Opener, who has already shown the heart King (he assumes), shows the heart Queen (5♥). A "king ask" is a Queen-ask in a suit where you have already shown the King.

 

This way, 6NT is easily reached. Had Opener held a sixth spade, he might blast 7, figuring that the grand try and his sixth spade was enough. That would be bad and would force reliance on the heart finesse and a 3-3 split. But, a sixth spade alone is not enough, IMO. If Responder hears about the heart Queen and then bids 6NT, Opener should definitely now bid 7 with the sixth spade also.

 

BTW, I also like a 2♦ 2/1 start, but that's perhaps too out there.

[fred]

Hi Ken,

 

After 1S-2NT, I can buy that your methods allow opener to show both the King and Queen of hearts, but at what point does he show the 2 of hearts?

 

As far as I can tell, in your preferred methods, opener never said he has a 4-card heart suit (which is rather important in terms of bidding 6NT or the right number of spades). Sorry if I am missing something.

 

I agree with you that in the long run you will do best to make a forcing raise (rather than make a 2/1) when you have a strong balanced hand with 4-card support for opener's major though I have no doubt that playing 2C as some kind of artificial relay (as MikeH suggests) will be (much) better still for combinations like this one.

 

However, given that you seem to have used the auction 1S-2C-2H-2S as an opportunity to plug your own fancy cuebidding methods, I hope you took some time to think about how much better "pattern showing" rates to work with this sort of combination.

 

On the actual hand it doesn't really matter. Your methods work just fine but if opener's 3rd bid shows his shape the auction is just as successful (and arguably much easier on the partnership). Of course neither method will get the job done unless opener has a way to show the Queen of hearts later in the auction.

 

But you seem to gloss over the possibility of opener having 5-5 distribution as if this is not a big deal. True it is not a big deal when responder has the actual hand he does, but he does not need a minor suit King at all to make 7S cold if opener has 5 hearts. Showing the 5th heart is trivial of course if opener bids out his pattern over 2S, but as far as I can tell you don't have this club in your bag. There are other similar layouts in which responder will want to know that opener is 6-4 and I don't think you can express that either.

 

No doubt you will come up with some kind of answer to these points (all of which are pretty much meaningless anyways since neither of us would have bid 2C in the first place).

 

I don't really want to get into yet another debate about whether pattern bidding or fancy cuebidding is superior in this auction. All I am hoping to accomplish with the above is to make sure that you take a look in the mirror and consider the (mainstream) alternative whenever you propose a fancy cuebidding auction.

 

If you do this then perhaps one day you will change your mind, but that will never happen if you, like most mad scientists I have met, cling to your pet theories while glossing over the alternatives without proper consideration.

 

The same is true of me (and the rest of us) of course ;)

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[keylime]

I think in a relay system, once doesn't get to 6NT unless they get every inference right.

 

I trotted out this from our Ultra (2 flavors of 1M-2C):

 

1M-2C (art g/f)

2D (either balanced, both majors, or single suited) - 2H* (ask)

2NT* (both majors) - 3C* (ask)

3D* (5-4-x-x) - 3S* (beta)

4D* (4 controls) - 4H* (CAB)

4NT* (K of H) - 5C* (CAB)

5D* (no control) - 5NT* (pick a slam)

6S

 

1S-2C

2S (both majors) - 2NT (asking)

3C (any non-min) - 3D (asking)

3S (5-4, short diamond) - 3NT (serious)

4H - 4NT (6ARKCB)

5D (3 kcs) - 6S

 

So, 15 rounds of bidding with one, and a very tricky auction with the other one in terms of getting to the right strain, what a regular field will get to in half the time, 6♠.

[mikeh]

I think in a relay system, once doesn't get to 6NT unless they get every inference right.

 

I trotted out this from our Ultra (2 flavors of 1M-2C):

 

1M-2C (art g/f)

2D (either balanced, both majors, or single suited) - 2H* (ask)

2NT* (both majors) - 3C* (ask)

3D* (5-4-x-x) - 3S* (beta)

4D* (4 controls) - 4H* (CAB)

4NT* (K of H) - 5C* (CAB)

5D* (no control) - 5NT* (pick a slam)

6S

 

1S-2C

2S (both majors) - 2NT (asking)

3C (any non-min) - 3D (asking)

3S (5-4, short diamond) - 3NT (serious)

4H - 4NT (6ARKCB)

5D (3 kcs) - 6S

 

So, 15 rounds of bidding with one, and a very tricky auction with the other one in terms of getting to the right strain, what a regular field will get to in half the time, 6♠.

You need a better relay method!

 

I haven't played my method for years, so may have the details wrong, but I do know that the sequence of ask and tell is right.. I may just be getting the precise opener response wrong...

 

1♠  2♣  gf relay

2♦  2♥: 2♦ is balanced or hearts side suit

3♦  3♥:  5=4=1=3

3N  4♣:  4 control

4♥  4♠:   AK of spades or no top spade, A or K of hearts but not both

4N  5♣:   no top club (A/K)

5♦  5♥:   no spade Queen

5N  6N: heart Q, no club Q: 6N conclusion, claiming before the lead.

 

This is for AKJxx KQxx x xxx: with AKJxx KQxx xxx x, the 3rd line of bidding has opener rebidding 3♣, and thereafter the diamond suit is scanned, but the club suit is not... we never scan singleton or void suits... since we can scan long suits several times, if the values are there, we can always identify stiff As or Ks. the method doesn't find stiff Queens, however... altho we can sometimes break the relay to set the stiff suit as trump, and opener, with the Q, will be encouraged.. if we relay to exact shape and then bid the stiff suit naturally, we show a very good hand with a good suit.. we tend to bid a natural 2/1 otherwise (altho if the suit is clubs, we can't make that distinction)

[keylime]

Mike,

 

I was trying to bid this, while in the middle of my MCSE class, so I was in a bit of a hurry!

 

Admittedly, now that I think about it since I have a few moments, I would have a way to pin down the QH and the stiff diamond for the pattern. Now 6NT becomes feasible once I count tricks, which I feel is the key to the hand - counting tricks to see if 7 is possible.

 

What I wanted to illustrate was that getting to 6NT is a challenge, and that reasonably, getting 6S would have quite a bit of company.