and more redouble trouble

[jillybean]

[hv=d=n&v=e&n=sj92hqdk7654ca863&s=sak54haj82dt83ct5]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     Pass  Pass  1♦

 Dbl   RDbl  1♥    Pass

 3♥    4♦    4♥    Pass

 Pass  5♣    Pass  5♦

 Dbl   Pass  Pass  Pass

 

 

Here’s yet another hand where we came unstuck, my partner plays XX showing 10+. Using this method I have no idea of what to do next, I could bid 1♠ but if pards got ♠'s he could have bid them. I think a ♦ raise is better here.

 

The other method of playing xx here shows a stronger hand or one that is serious about penalizing the opps at a low level ? I know there has been a lot of discussion about this in the past, I’ll go searching.

[rogerclee]

I hate to recommend conventions to B/I players, but you should play that 2NT here shows a limit raise in diamonds, which would have probably made the hand easier. It doesn't make any sense for this to be natural, since you would rather redouble with an invitational NT hand.

 

Certainly south should have doubled 4♥ for penalty, though I don't know why north saved anyway.

[mike777]

if your point is xx can cause problems, I agree

[inquiry]

i am not fond of rdbl with support, but after the rdbl, when they bid 4♥ when they are vul and you hold south hand, what are you waiting for to double. The double should be swift and automatic. South even has a useful lead... the ♠AK (depending on agreement).

[jillybean]

Yep, my pass was terrible. I didnt know quite what was going on, panicked, shut the brain off and paid the cost.

[JLOL]

It's true you should double 4H, but you should also have doubled 1H!

[jillybean]

It's true you should double 4H, but you should also have doubled 1H!

OK, I'll bite - why? Showing 4♠? I didnt double because I thought if West had ♠ and not ♥'s then partner is left bidding ♦'s with my xxx.

Maybe this makes no sense ,,its late.

[the hog]

i am not fond of rdbl with support, but after the rdbl, when they bid 4♥ when they are vul and you hold south hand, what are you waiting for to double. The double should be swift and automatic. South even has a useful lead... the ♠AK (depending on agreement).

Agree with Benjamin. Automatic x.

[jdonn]

It's true you should double 4H, but you should also have doubled 1H!

OK, I'll bite - why? Showing 4♠? I didnt double because I thought if West had ♠ and not ♥'s then partner is left bidding ♦'s with my xxx.

Maybe this makes no sense ,,its late.

It's a penalty double. Partner doesn't have to pass, you are just showing four hearts and if it's appropriate partner will pass. They might be in trouble even at the one level.

[JLOL]

It's true you should double 4H, but you should also have doubled 1H!

OK, I'll bite - why? Showing 4♠? I didnt double because I thought if West had ♠ and not ♥'s then partner is left bidding ♦'s with my xxx.

Maybe this makes no sense ,,its late.

When partner redoubles he's saying you guys have more points than them, and subsequent doubles are penalty. This is especially true if partner won't redouble wtih a good fit or a good five card suit, because his hand will typically be balanced or 3 suited short in your suit. If you have 4 good trumps you are supposed to double. If partner has a stiff heart he will pull at the 1 level since he knows they have an 8 card fit, and if partner has 2 hearts and 10/11 points you can expect to do very well on defense when you have your actual hand.

[mcphee]

I have zero appreciation for redble with 5 trumps simply to advise partner we have 10+ hcp and prefer 2NT, or even a simple raise for the more timid. The opening bidder found the amazing pass of 1H when dble is more reasonable expecting a healthy number, now due to the first stroke of good fortune they have reached 4H surely it is an early celebration of your birthday and dble is a standout.

 

The N player also never gave up after TELLING their story raising to 4D, surely this is enough.

 

Some folks like to reverse the meaning of 2N and 3 of a minor after the t/o dble. 2N becomes a pre-empt, not my choice of favorite toys.

[jillybean]

Thanks! Could someone please post a hand where partner will sit for a penalty double after;

 

1♦ (X) XX (1♥)

X (P) P

[jillybean]

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa753hajt4d542ck8&w=s9864h73d86cqj432&e=skqjhq52daqj3ct95&s=st2hk986dkt97ca76]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 Pass  1♦    Dbl   RDbl

 1♠    1NT   Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

 

Here's a hand I was kibitzing, seems like North should have doubled 1♠.

And South should have bid his ♥'s?

 

After xx (bid) x is a new suit forcing, so if south now bids 2♥ f or nf? And would 2♦ be f or nf?

[Codo]

I play that XX forces till 2 NT, that makes it easy to introduce new suits without the need to jump when you have a real good hand.

 

For your example: I have no idea what 1 NT should show in this sequence, my feeling was that it should be stronger then just 12-14. But it worked extremly well in this example, so maybe this is a sensible approach.

 

I had never doubled 1 Spade with the North hand. not any 4 card suit is suitable for this. But even in this example, with 3 small trumps, 1 Spade X had been no honeymoon for West.

[jillybean]

Hi, if you wouldnt double 1♠ (as north) then what would you do?

[the hog]

Jilly, a penalty X of 1H is ridiculous. Don't listen to this comment.

[rogerclee]

Jilly, a penalty X of 1H is ridiculous. Don't listen to this comment.

LOL

[the hog]

Jilly, a penalty X of 1H is ridiculous. Don't listen to this comment.

LOL

I'm glad you agree. One of the few things we agree on!

[JLOL]

Jilly, a penalty X of 1H is ridiculous. Don't listen to this comment.

LOL

I'm glad you agree. One of the few things we agree on!

LOL

[Codo]

Hi, if you wouldnt double 1♠ (as north) then what would you do?

I would choose the bid that says: I have nothing more to add to my bidding so far.

I have no extra length, nor a penalty double, nor a two suiter, no subtantial extras.

I use "pass" to show this.

 

But of course, this is still forcing, because the rule is that after a XX, everything is forcing till they are doubled or we are in 2 NT or higher.

 

But I have no idea, what the majority does, maybe 1 NT to show 12-14 works much better.

[helene_t]

Thanks! Could someone please post a hand where partner will sit for a penalty double after;

 

1♦ (X) XX (1♥)

X (P) P

I use a corollary to the law of total tricks: we are generally happy to defend when we have as many trumps as we need tricks to defeat the contract.

 

This means that we need seven hearts to sit for a double on 1♥. Assuming opener's double promises four (I think that's correct), partner needs three hearts to sit for the double.

[rogerclee]

Thanks! Could someone please post a hand where partner will sit for a penalty double after;

 

1♦ (X) XX (1♥)

X (P)  P

I use a corollary to the law of total tricks: we are generally happy to defend when we have as many trumps as we need tricks to defeat the contract.

 

This means that we need seven hearts to sit for a double on 1♥. Assuming opener's double promises four (I think that's correct), partner needs three hearts to sit for the double.

Disagree, opener can and should pass with Hx routinely, we can reduce the hand to NT very quickly by leading trumps.

[mikeh]

Hi Jb

 

On the original post... I agree with those who suggest that you adopt a method whereby big-fitting hands raise in some manner. There are two popular methods (there will be others, I am sure, but in NA these are the two most common).

 

One is known (at least in your part of the world) as 'flip-flop'. The other is Dormer (I think that is it's name.. it might be Jordan, but the name is unimportant).

 

Both methods use 2N after 1M (x) as a limit raise (or better, if you want to add that) and 3M as weak.. most players are familiar with the use of 3M as weak, so this isn't too difficult. Remember that if redouble shows 10+, we don't have a need for a natural 2N.

 

Flip flop, as the name suggests, reverses this in the minor. Dormer (if that is the name) uses 2N as a limit raise over all 1suit (x), while flip flop uses 3m as the limit and 2N as the weak minor suit raise. There are pros and cons to the method.. I happen to think that using 2N as limit or better is superior by a narrow margin, but most of my partners disagree so I play flip flop.

 

This is very useful to play, because it eliminates the fit-hand from the redouble. I gather that you already play that, for example, responder can bid 1Major over 1m (x) with 10+ ... in other words, ignoring the double. This very good style allows you to limit the use of the redouble to balanced hands or 3-suiters short in opener's suit.

 

This in turn greatly increases the chances that you can catch the opps speeding even at the 1-level.

 

In this scheme, opener should feel eager to punish the opps, especially at equal or favourable vulnerability.. if red v white, maybe bidding your game will be better.. it depends. So opener should be hitting a runout to one of his 4 card suits unless he has a very unusual hand (say 1=4=7=1.. I wouldn't be happy hitting 1♥ on a minimum since there is effectively zero chance that they will play there and I will have to start running when partner doubles black suits)

 

You will find yourself redoubling less and less, as responder.. but that is ok, because partner will be able to make better decisions when you do.

 

I appreciate that many of your partners don't know these things, but as you improve, and as you find better partners (or you educate the ones you have) you will find that this is an effective way to play.

[jillybean]

Thanks all. If you remember, when you have a XX auction could you post it here please. I need to see some examples.

 

thanks

[manudude03]

Although not the same thing, the same principles apply (this is the only recent XX hand I can remember)

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sa87hkt94daq3ckq7]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♣-P-1♠-X

XX-2♦-P-2♥

...[/hv]

 

A lot of people might have rebid 2NT over the double, but that's another story.

 

Anyway, double should still be penalty here, for precisely the same reasons as it is penalty if responder redoubles.