Rebids after 1m- 1H

[dcvetkov]

Recenly, i was given some system notes from my semi-regular partner.

 

The issue is in which cases you supress showing 4 spades, and there are some specific agreements about it

 

For example, this sequence

 

1m- 1H

1S

 

This promises unbalanced hand, minimum 5-4, or 6-4 in blacks, while this

 

1m-1H

1NT

 

can have 4 card spades quite frequenty, and it is balanced hand 4-4-3-2 or 4-3-3-3) . If responder wish to check for 4 spades, he can do it ( or show 4) via 2 way checkback.

 

I thought forgoing to show 4 spades, would be made on a case to case basis, depends on your spade spots, and quit quality and shape. but looks I could be wrong. I would rebid 1Nt if the hand looks notrumpish, and if I welcome the spade lead, for example AJ9x of spades

 

I would like to know if there is some expert agreement about this, or if it is part of 2/1 ( or it goes hand in hand with 2 way checkback

[Gerben42]

I think this is a treatment that is neither very good nor very bad. Just play what feels right for you.

 

As someone who likes to show hand type first, I'm much in favour of bidding 1NT with a 4-card ♠, but good points can be made for the opposite treatment.

 

Bidding 1NT on balanced hands keeps things simple, otherwise you run into problems like:

 

1♣ - 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♦*

 

* 4th suit forcing

 

and your hand is:

 

[hv=s=skj43hk83d953caq7]133|100|[/hv]

 

Of course you can bid 2♥ now, but partner has to be aware that you haven't shown a shapely hand although you have bid ♣, then ♠ and then ♥...

[whereagles]

I'm much in favour of bidding 1NT with a 4-card ♠, but good points can be made for the opposite treatment.

Me too. The main issue is losing a spade 44 fit; going down in 1NT instead of making 2♠.

 

I once ran a simulation and saw that that was a problem around 4% of the time. 4% isn't much for me, but it can lead to some embarassing scores, especially in match point events.

[awm]

I prefer the bidding-up-the-line style. Despite various claims I've seen made for the alternative style, I think it makes very little difference on game-going hands. As long as partner knows what hand type(s) are possible for each call, you have plenty of space to sort things out via fourth suit game force (2♦) or two-way nmf (also 2♦).

 

The main difference is where you play your partscore hands. Bidding 1♠ allows you to find some 4-4 spade fits (or 4-3 spade fits with partner weak enough to pass 1♠) and these often play a lot better than 1NT. The alternative style helps you find some 5-2 heart fits (you can rebid 2♥ over a 1nt rebid on five fairly safely, whereas doing the same over 1♠ risks opener passing you on singleton) but I find this to be less likely to improve the score. Proponents of the "bypass spades" style may also argue that this helps you find diamond partials (but that only really applies if responder would bid 1♥ with 4♥ and 5+♦ in the first place, which I wouldn't) and that it helps you find a club partial opposite an unbalanced opener (but opener can always pull 1nt to 2♣ anyway). So far I've won a lot of boards playing in 1♠, especially ones where the field rebids 2nt as opener, so I'm not likely to be convinced any time soon. :o

[dcvetkov]

I agree it is not probably a big deal. There are partner who insist on you showing the shape first and bid suits up the line, its almost like a crime to hide the spades. I find that showing spades frequently help opponents in the lead, when we eventually end up in NT contract, which could also be played from wrong side.

 

But the other thing is, as part of this agreement, then

 

1m - 1H

1S

 

Then this promises unbalanced hand, 5 in minor and 4 spades, so, responder can plan accordingly. So with all other balanced hand types you must rebid 1NT. Maybe there ia merit in this argument.

[jdonn]

Proponents of the "bypass spades" style may also argue ... that it helps you find a club partial opposite an unbalanced opener (but opener can always pull 1nt to 2♣ anyway).

There are two problems, and I'm only playing devil's advocate since I rebid 1♠ unless I'm 4333. Take the auction 1♣ 1♥ 1♠. One problem is that responder may have nothing in diamonds so be unable to bid 1NT and thus have to risk a seven card (or 6 if opener can be 4333?) minor suit fit if he is 3523 or 3433. The other is regarding your last statement, why would opener pull 1NT with five clubs? Saying he can doesn't help since he won't.

[awm]

There are two problems, and I'm only playing devil's advocate since I rebid 1♠ unless I'm 4333. Take the auction 1♣ 1♥ 1♠. One problem is that responder may have nothing in diamonds so be unable to bid 1NT and thus have to risk a seven card (or 6 if opener can be 4333?) minor suit fit if he is 3523 or 3433. The other is regarding your last statement, why would opener pull 1NT with five clubs? Saying he can doesn't help since he won't.

This argument about diamond stoppers always seemed strange to me. Why can't responder bid 1nt without a diamond stopper? Why is it perfectly okay for opener to bypass spades in order to bid 1nt on some 4333 without a diamond stopper, but it's not okay for responder to rebid 1nt over 1♠ with 3433 without a diamond stopper?

 

If you're going to game (and you usually won't be) then there is a huge amount of available space to sort out what the best game is.

 

I'd expect opener to remove 1nt with six clubs almost always. With five clubs, probably not, but why is the 5-3 club fit suddenly some extremely desirable partial?

 

I agree with bypassing spades sometimes on a 4333 hand.

[jdonn]

This argument about diamond stoppers always seemed strange to me. Why can't responder bid 1nt without a diamond stopper? Why is it perfectly okay for opener to bypass spades in order to bid 1nt on some 4333 without a diamond stopper, but it's not okay for responder to rebid 1nt over 1♠ with 3433 without a diamond stopper?

Because if opener bids 1NT at his second turn, responder can pull without extra strength. If responder bids 1NT at his second turn, opener can't pull on that auction (except to 2♣) without extra strength. Responder's 1NT is more final.

 

I'd expect opener to remove 1nt with six clubs almost always. With five clubs, probably not, but why is the 5-3 club fit suddenly some extremely desirable partial?

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I was responding to you, who said "but opener can always pull 1nt to 2♣ anyway". Of course I took that to mean when opener has 5 clubs, because almost everyone will pull all the time when opener has 6 clubs so your methods won't matter.

 

I guess I'd just say you can't have it both ways. Either you want to be in the club fit and bypassing spades is better (in that regard), or you don't and bidding the spades is better. But it's silly to bid the spades and pretend that doesn't significantly lower your chances of finding the club fit, which it seems you were arguing.

 

I agree with bypassing spades sometimes on a 4333 hand.

I bypass always with 4333 and feel quite strongly about it. But again, that's just me.