What your favorite NT range?

[JLOL]

Jan, I don't get it...I think Frances has probably played a lot of weak NT so it is not because she is unfamiliar with it that she finds competitive auctions more difficult. Maybe I'm wrong and just assume she has played a lot of weak NT because she is English, I am totally making an assumption so maybe you know she's played strong NT her whole life and I don't :rolleyes:

 

Anyways, I am probably equally familiar with them (I played almost only weak NT when I started, then variable, and now mostly strong), and I agree that in competitive auctions when I don't open 1N I prefer to play a strong NT system, but I also agree it's pretty close. Sometimes you win playing weak NT because responder can bid more easily knowing partner has an unbalanced hand or extras, but often opener has some awkward problems because a strong NT hand type is not always comfortable just passing on his second bid like a weak NT hand type would be.

 

A prototypical auction that's very difficult for weak NTers is 1D (2S) p p. If opener is passing it out with his flat 16 he might well be missing something. Partner could have a flat 9 that he couldn't make a negative double with (3235 or whatever), or partner could have a shapely hand with not so many high cards that he is not comfortable bidding with that makes a partscore or game opposite the right strong NT but gets way too high opposite a misfitting unbalanced hand type.

 

Also some auctions are difficult when you are unbalanced and the opponents bid your second best suit, and you are forced to bid something on the second round. For instance an easy auction like 1C 2H 2S p ? If 2N shows a strong NT here, then you have to bid something with a 1435 12 count which is pretty ugly.

 

Also the concept of 1m p 1M p 2M showing "a strong NT or an unbalanced hand" can be a nice benefit, but it is simply not true that all unbalanced openers with a fit are the equivalent in playing strength to a strong NT so you end up having a range that is effectively too wide. You can play a style where you open a little sounder with a minor and an unbalanced hand to alleviate that, but I think that the fix is bigger than the problem then. The other thing is, if you ever like raising with 3 card support and a singleton, you are really overbidding if you play a weak NT system. Certainly a 1345 12 count is not worth 15 and 4 trumps balanced, but opening 1m(your choice) and rebidding 2C is a loss in my opinion.

 

Also, speaking of that 1435 12 count, if you are like me then you like having the option of rebidding 1N with that after 1C p 1S p ? This is not an option playing weak NT. Of course you do get to rebid 1N with 15/16 now, but the weaker hand type is much much more frequent, and with 17 you could probably reverse anyways.

 

etc etc. But like I said, it is often easier as responder when you're playing a weak NT system, but imo competitive auctions are better playing a strong NT system.

[gwnn]

I read a weak NT system ('Roadmap'?) where they reserved 1♣-1M, 2♦ and something else for 1♦ which I forgot to show a strong NT with 4 card fit which was very useful. With both minors and a good hand they had to rebid 2NT though.. So they had to open 2NT with 18-20... So they had to open 2♣ with the randomest 21 counts... So the fixes were quite costly. I wonder if they could have done something to this end to make a little better.

[JLOL]

I ran an extensive study of NT ranges using BRidgeBRowser. It seems that the weaker the range the better the results.

Do you think you can make any meaningful conclusions from this? I would guess that a much higher %age of pickup partnerships play strong NT than the %age of regular partnerships that play strong NT which means that the weak NT pairs in your database are much more likely to be a regular partnership than a strong NT pair. This alone gives them a big edge since they will have agreements, and will be more likely to be experts.

 

Not only that but I think that weak NT is very hard for people without agreements to defend against, since there is a higher chance that it is their hand for game and they are effectively preempted. Not just that, but if you don't know whats forcing, what subsequent doubles mean, how to get to 44 fits, how many HCP your partner is showing, etc, then it is a MUCH more effective preempt than even a weak 2 where people know how to play takeout doubles and what bids mean and such. Can you imagine how good weak 2s would be against most people if they had the same lack of knowledge and understanding and experience that they did over weak NT in general?

 

This lack of knowledge as to how to find fits and bid game when the opps open a weak NT applies also when the opps open a STRONG NT, but the difference is it doesn't matter nearly as often now.

[JanM]

You make some good points, Justin. I think my feeling that the competitive hands work out better in a weak NT based system is just that I more often see problems caused by 1m openers that can be either quite good shaped hands with a real suit or a weak NT than I do ones caused by 1m openers with either a real suit or extra strength. But maybe it's just that I've played this style for a long time so it feels more comfortable to me.

 

There are going to be awkward hands playing any system, and particularly after the opponents make a weak jump overcall (especially 2♠ of course :ph34r:). But it seems to me that I see hands where it goes 1m-2♠ and I look at the responding hand and think "3m, wtp" and then I realize that for this particular responder, partner might have a 4333 12 count, so the raise might get them to a very silly contract. OTOH, if it goes 1m-2♠-P-P to me and I have a 4333 16 count, I might get a poor result by passing, but it won't be a disaster - if we could make a partscore higher than 2♠ maybe we'll beat them. And if we can't beat them, maybe our teammates bid 2♠ over 1NT at the other table and got to play it there. The worst thing that's going to happen is that we'll end up defending a making partscore when we had a making partscore and our teammates couldn't bid over 1NT and the opponents got to the partscore that makes - I know, that's 7 IMPs, but on balance I think the losses because responder can't compete with moderate support for the opened minor are worse. Rarely, we can make a game and responder can't bid, but usually if we can make game, responder will be able to do something (of course your 3235 9 count after 1♦-2♠ is an exception, although sometimes I might raise diamonds with that). Maybe I'm wrong. It's a long time since I've played a strong NT system for more than a very few sessions (and those were matchpoints).

 

And it is clearly true that to get full benefit from taking the weak NT hands out of our opening minor suit bids, we have to add a lot of agreements. For instance, we solve the unbalanced minimum with 3 card support by playing transfer responses to 1♣ and transfer rebids after 1♦-1M. That allows us to find out which hand opener has below 2M (out of comp). Still, we used to raise 1m-1M with both 3 and 4 in unbalanced hands, as well as with the 15-17 4 card support hands, and didn't have a lot of problems. But my opening bids may be a little sounder than yours, and maybe even more so when I didn't have as many gadgets available.

[skjaeran]

I'm used to (14)15-17, and is very comfortable with that. I'm not at all comfortable with 12-14. Some 20+ years ago I tried out 7-12 NV (always some 4432) at MP with great success. In addition it was great fun! You're not allowed to play that anymore.

[Free]

14+-17 in a standard system, otherwise 11+-14 if it fits the system (like strong ♣, fantunes,...)

[Trinidad]

I grew up in an environment where only strong NT existed. So, I don't have much experience with weak NT's, but I have been thinking of starting to play it because it may fit the rest of the system well.

 

The issue that I cannot solve and that I think every weak NT player has a problem with is what to do with a strong NT hand when partner responds 1NT.

 

You could have:

♠AQ

♥KJTx

♦QTxx

♣AJx

 

You open 1♦ and partner responds 1NT. What do you bid now?

 

If partner has 6 HCP, the strong NT field will open 1NT and play it there. If partner has 9 HCP, the strong NT will open 1NT and play in 3NT, which is likely to make. Should one bid 2NT and play a level higher than the field opposite a 6 count (in a wrong sided contract)? Or should one pass and miss game opposite partner's maximum (where the odds of wrongsiding are less since the strength difference between the hands is smaller)?

 

What do weak NT ers do to solve this?

 

Rik

[mtvesuvius]

What do weak NT ers do to solve this?

We do the right thing ofc! :D

 

This is a relatively rare situation and I think the gains outweigh the losses...

Normally I would bid 2NT with your given hand. If it's wrongsided, then we may already have a bad board. I want to stay with the field as much as possible here...

[helene_t]

The issue that I cannot solve and that I think every weak NT player has a problem with is what to do with a strong NT hand when partner responds 1NT.

Yes, you would like to limit the 1NT response to 8 points so opener can pass with 16. But it is nasty to respond 2♣ with 9 points as you also have to cater for opener having a 4441 12-count. I think Frances has worked it out.

[oldman5757]

A 14-16 NT works very well in Precision, so that 1♦ - 1M - 1NT is limited to 13 hcp. Likewise, 1♣ - 1♦ - 1NT shows 17-18 HCP.

 

IMHO, weak NT's are much better at IMPs than at MPs. The reason is that the weak NT tends to bury 4-4 major fits. Not a big deal at IMPs but can be very costly at MPs.

 

I actually think the best reason to play weak NT's is that they're so much fun to play! :D

[hotShot]

I grew up in an environment where only strong NT existed. So, I don't have much experience with weak NT's, but I have been thinking of starting to play it because it may fit the rest of the system well.

 

The issue that I cannot solve and that I think every weak NT player has a problem with is what to do with a strong NT hand when partner responds 1NT.

 

You could have:

♠AQ

♥KJTx

♦QTxx

♣AJx

 

You open 1♦ and partner responds 1NT. What do you bid now?

 

If partner has 6 HCP, the strong NT field will open 1NT and play it there. If partner has 9 HCP, the strong NT will open 1NT and play in 3NT, which is likely to make. Should one bid 2NT and play a level higher than the field opposite a 6 count (in a wrong sided contract)? Or should one pass and miss game opposite partner's maximum (where the odds of wrongsiding are less since the strength difference between the hands is smaller)?

 

What do weak NT ers do to solve this?

 

Rik

If you don't have a 4 card major, you can:

 

- pass weakish hands with 3334 shape

- rise ♦ with 4+ ♦ cards e.g. 3343 shape

- bid NT only with 8+ HCP so that 2NT should be save

 

this solves most of the problems.

[JanM]

I grew up in an environment where only strong NT existed. So, I don't have much experience with weak NT's, but I have been thinking of starting to play it because it may fit the rest of the system well.

 

The issue that I cannot solve and that I think every weak NT player has a problem with is what to do with a strong NT hand when partner responds 1NT.

 

You could have:

♠AQ

♥KJTx

♦QTxx

♣AJx

 

You open 1♦ and partner responds 1NT. What do you bid now?

 

If partner has 6 HCP, the strong NT field will open 1NT and play it there. If partner has 9 HCP, the strong NT will open 1NT and play in 3NT, which is likely to make. Should one bid 2NT and play a level higher than the field opposite a 6 count (in a wrong sided contract)? Or should one pass and miss game opposite partner's maximum (where the odds of wrongsiding are less since the strength difference between the hands is smaller)?

 

What do weak NT ers do to solve this?

 

Rik

I think that all methods have their "I hate it" auctions. Certainly when you're playing weak NTs, 1♦-1NT is one of those. There isn't any really good solution to it. You can improve things by not opening 1♦ as often with a strong NT (your example hand can comfortably open 1♣, lying a little about minor suit shape). But if you're going to open 1♦ sometimes with a strong NT, responder is going to have to bid 1NT with too wide a range of hands and you'll either go down in 2NT when you could make 1, or miss game.

 

Opening all strong NTs 1♣ helps, especially if you play transfer responses and 1♠ shows any response with no 4 card major. Then you can respond 1NT only with a narrow specific range of hands (we use it for hands that would invite opposite a strong NT, because we hate to play 2NT if we don't have to). But you also add a lot of complexity. It took us months to put the structure in place and we're still working on it, especially in competitive auctions.

 

If there were a method that avoided all of the "bad" sequences, we'd all be playing it, wouldn't we? So mainly it's a matter of knowing what the problems are and being prepared for them. For instance, before I'd open 1♦ with a strong NT, I'd always decide what I was going to do if partner responded 1NT - after all, you know that's the problem auction, so be ready for it. And once in a while a smooth 1♦-1NT-P auction will convince the opponents to balance. Not often, but it does happen. It won't if it goes 1♦-1NT- agonized huddle P.

[Stephen Tu]

Playing weak NT, I prefer the K-S solution of limiting 1nt responses to 5-8 so a normal strong NT can pass routinely knowing game is marginal at best. inverted minor raises and 1d-2c are played lighter than standard, 9+. This admittedly can eventually lead you to some lightish, subpar 15-9 3nt contracts and 12/13-9 2nt contracts but it's rather rare (responder has 4 cd major or opps are bidding will prevent a lot of these from coming up!), and you'll make it some chunk of the time.

[rbforster]

The NT range should be a function of the system you're playing!

Sure, but actually I think one big aspect of this discussion that hasn't come up much is the defense your opponents are playing. I wouldn't be surprised if you told me that at NV, it was good to play the cheapest 3 point range against which your opponents don't play a penalty double. I'm also in JLOL's boat when he said opening weak NT was big money against the many under-prepared players out there.

 

I like 10 to 12 NV but it usually creates a system hole (since it makes the other ranges too wide). For instance playing 10 to 12 in standard, a rebid of 1N shows 13 to 16 which is unplayable (alternatively you jump to 2N with 16, also unplayable). I also don't like 4 point ranges so I prefer 11 to 13 generally when NV. This goes well with a strong club system where 1D then 1N can be 14 to 16 and 1C then 1N 17 to 19.

I'm not sure there's a system hole there really, although I agree anything more than 3 point ranges comes at a price you'd rather not pay. But what's wrong with this precision base (1♣ 16+)?

 

10-12 1NT

13-15 1♦

16-18 1♣-1♦-1N (16+ club, negative diamond)

19-21 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-1N (1♥ Kokish or strong, 1♠ forced or 2nd neg)

22-23 1♣-1♦-2N etc

 

It seems to me that the main constraint on how weak you want to play your lowest NT range is where you want the low end of your strong club to start. There are plenty of ways to bid 2N once you're playing a strong club (1C-1D-2N, open 2N, 1C-1D-1H-1S-2N), so if you don't mind having these start around 21+ you can open all the way down to a 9-11 1NT (reducing the ranges above by 1 point) without any significant difficulties.

[awm]

Another question that hasn't come up directly might be "is it a good idea to open 1NT on off-shape hands, and to upgrade good offensive hands which are light on points into the 1NT opening."

 

My feeling is that usually the answer is no, but I know some good players who feel otherwise. I also know some good players who open a lot of 13-counts with a "15-17" notrump which I personally think is ethically shady but most people seem to have no problems with.

 

I kind of agree with Rob about the penalty doubles. My feeling is that 15-17 is probably about right if the opponents "always play penalty double" (this range is strong enough that penalty doubles are pretty rare, at least if you're not in the "upgrade lots of 13-counts with 6-card suit" camp). But if they aren't going to play penalty doubles against 14-16 (most don't) or even 13-15 (some don't) then that range seems potentially better.

[blackshoe]

But what's wrong with this precision base (1♣ 16+)?

 

10-12 1NT

13-15 1♦

16-18 1♣-1♦-1N (16+ club, negative diamond)

19-21 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-1N (1♥ Kokish or strong, 1♠ forced or 2nd neg)

22-23 1♣-1♦-2N etc

Similar to Romex Forcing Club:

 

10-12 1NT

13-16 1♦ (probably), then 1NT

17-20 1♣-1♦-1NT

21-22 2♦ (Mexican), rebid 2NT

23-24 1♣-1♦-2NT

25-26 1♣-1♦-2♥-2♠-2NT (Kokish)