What your favorite NT range?

[rogerclee]

I think this depends on system, I have always preferred a 14+-17 range playing basic 2/1. I played 12-14 for a year or two and found that I did not like starting my strong NT hands with 1m, there were considerable losses when the opponents interfered.

 

I don't like a 10-12 or 10-13 range in a 2/1 system, I think you are really giving up a lot in order to have the (questionable) benefit of being able to open 1N on these kinds of hands.

[peachy]

I play 12-14 with one partner and like it because it often steals the hand and gives away no information to the opponents. Plus, opps feel friskier to overcall a weak NT in some manner and get burned. Plus, opps have difficulty deciding whether to balance in against weak NT or not.

Still, mostly I play 15-17 and I feel more comfortable with it. Playing weak NT, I have to concentrate to remember to look for the inferences from the auction if partner "did" or "didn't" open 1NT.

[keylime]

14-16 NT. Works very well if you're not of the split range NT crowd.

[JLOL]

I strongly prefer strong no-trump in 2nd seat

I used to think that this MUST be theoretically superior (for obvious reasons), but it seemed to work differently in practice. This could be because my opponents were terrible against weak NT, but i think it was because I was playing mainly matchpoints and opening 1N with a weak NT non vul is just so money imo. It makes it so much harder for them to compete and you go minus 50 or 100 into their partscore so often it seems like. I think at imps I still agree with this though, but I'm not sure even then since it makes effective game bidding harder (you get to the 3 level too much or miss some games sometimes or lose double partscore swings...). It just seems like there's huge value in MP in playing weak NT NV in second seat.

 

Also don't remember if I said it in my first post in this thread but I would never play weak NT in THIRD seat and don't like it in fourth either.

[shintaro]

:P

 

12 - 14 Cos I play proper bridge (ACOL) and prefer the pre-emptive value of the bid;

 

Perhaps those who play Strong NT only do so cos they cannot play No Trump contracts;

 

Ducking down behind couch and putting on Tin Hat and Tin Knickers ready for the backlash :) :blink: :unsure: :lol:

[the hog]

10-12 and 14-16 depending on vulnerability.

[georgeac]

12-14 or 15-17 depending on the partner.

[Finch]

Vulnerability, position and form of scoring all matter.

 

Ideally, I would play subtly different ranges depending on all three factors. I don't, because I don't have the energy, and I usually just play a strong NT (with a mini 1st NV in one partnership). The problem is that all of your constructive and competitive auction inferences change with the NT range and I can't cope.

 

As a complement to JLOL's comment about matchpoints, at aggregate (total points), the strong NT is in my experience a big winner.

 

I do play strong NT in many matchpoint events with most of the field playing weak NT and I think in general the direct gains and losses tend to balance out in total. Certainly the weak NT gains tend to come when the weak NT bidder is not vulnerable.

 

The indirect effects (what happens in competition etc) I believe generally favour strong NT, but this is very difficult to prove one way or the other.

[Tcyk]

I ran an extensive study of NT ranges using BRidgeBRowser. It seems that the weaker the range the better the results. I saw another article/blog that stated that the side that bid NT first tended to get the best results. This is in keeping with the low NY ranges. They bid NT first.

 

I saw someones profile yesterday that said 1NT was 15+ HCP and 2C was balanced 21-23 HCP. I wondered if this really meant that he would open 1NT with 24+ HCP. I may be wrong but I believe Romex used 1NT as its strong forcing opening bid.

[whereagles]

I like 10 to 12 NV but it usually creates a system hole (since it makes the other ranges too wide).

You can "fix" that by playing a preparatory club/diamond.

 

1♣ 1x

1NT = 13-14

 

1♦ 1x

1NT = 15-17

 

This allows even a 1NT lowering to 9-11.

[babalu1997]

12-14 mt works well for me.

 

when I decided to paly so, i had to convince several partners, but now they all prefer wek nt.

 

the thing is when i am playing 15-17 1nt open, and my partner opens a minor and rebids 1nt, i have to take 1 teaspoon of maalox. :)

 

whereas a 1nt rebid of 15-17 allows me rither to pass for a great contract or immediately place a game.

[nige1]

I agree with Frances Hinden. The ideal range varies, depending on a variety of factors. For example

• System.
  
• Position at the table.
  
• Vulnerability.
  
• Kind of scoring.
  
• State of the match.
  
• Prejudices.
  
• How much complication the partnership can accommodate. Simplicity is often best.
  

I've tried most variations

• From 8-10 (Green in 1st 2 seats) up to 17-19 (Red in last 2 seats).
  
• Wide range (eg Blue club)
  
• Artificial (eg Romex).
  

For ease of memory, like Helene, I now prefer a mundane 13-15.

[mtvesuvius]

I like 10 to 12 NV but it usually creates a system hole (since it makes the other ranges too wide).

You can "fix" that by playing a preparatory club/diamond.

 

1♣ 1x

1NT = 13-14

 

1♦ 1x

1NT = 15-17

 

This allows even a 1NT lowering to 9-11.

Yes, but then you lose the value of a minor suit opening here... You also are in trouble if there is interference. I have done this many times before, but I don't feel that it's worth it.

[whereagles]

Yes, but then you lose the value of a minor suit opening here... You also are in trouble if there is interference. I have done this many times before, but I don't feel that it's worth it.

A 2+ cards opener is just about as muddy as a 3+ cards opener. I don't really see the difference should matter much.

[Gerben42]

But with these ranges you lose TWO minor suit openings. I very much prefer 2+♣ 4+♦ and that's not possible with 9-11 NT or the like.

[TylerE]

Other:

 

12-14 if playing a standardish 5CM system

10-12 playing strong club at favorable or equal (inc. r/r) 1st-3rd

12+-15 playing strong club at unfavorable and in 4th

[JanM]

The indirect effects (what happens in competition etc) I believe generally favour strong NT, but this is very difficult to prove one way or the other.

I found that an interesting comment, because my impression is the opposite - the main advantage I think I gain from playing a weak(ish) NT (12-14, sliding about half a point depending on vul) is on the hands where I don't open 1NT. And it's those hands that make it hard for me to adjust to playing a strong NT - my instincts are all wrong when one of us opens 1 of a minor and there's competition. So perhaps both Frances and I are thinking about what happens for us when playing an unfamiliar range. The competitive auctions become less comfortable for each of us without the experience we have from having played a lot of hands using our preferred NT range.

[whereagles]

But with these ranges you lose TWO minor suit openings. I very much prefer 2+♣ 4+♦ and that's not possible with 9-11 NT or the like.

I don't lose anything. What I give up, I had already given up: ability to support a minor with 4 cards.

[hotShot]

The indirect effects (what happens in competition etc) I believe generally favour strong NT, but this is very difficult to prove one way or the other.

I found that an interesting comment, because my impression is the opposite - the main advantage I think I gain from playing a weak(ish) NT (12-14, sliding about half a point depending on vul) is on the hands where I don't open 1NT. And it's those hands that make it hard for me to adjust to playing a strong NT - my instincts are all wrong when one of us opens 1 of a minor and there's competition. So perhaps both Frances and I are thinking about what happens for us when playing an unfamiliar range. The competitive auctions become less comfortable for each of us without the experience we have from having played a lot of hands using our preferred NT range.

Could it be that Frances is playing in an environment that is dominated by weak NT, while you are playing in a strong NT environment?

 

I suspect that any significant advantage is more likely to be caused by opps that are unfamiliar with your methods (here NT range), than any technical merit.

[mtvesuvius]

The indirect effects (what happens in competition etc) I believe generally favour strong NT, but this is very difficult to prove one way or the other.

I found that an interesting comment, because my impression is the opposite - the main advantage I think I gain from playing a weak(ish) NT (12-14, sliding about half a point depending on vul) is on the hands where I don't open 1NT. And it's those hands that make it hard for me to adjust to playing a strong NT - my instincts are all wrong when one of us opens 1 of a minor and there's competition. So perhaps both Frances and I are thinking about what happens for us when playing an unfamiliar range. The competitive auctions become less comfortable for each of us without the experience we have from having played a lot of hands using our preferred NT range.

Could it be that Frances is playing in an environment that is dominated by weak NT, while you are playing in a strong NT environment?

 

I suspect that any significant advantage is more likely to be caused by opps that are unfamiliar with your methods (here NT range), than any technical merit.

That is very true. In the US, Strong NT is extremely common, however in most other parts of the world, weak NT is widespread.

[orlam]

I like 10 to 12 NV but it usually creates a system hole (since it makes the other ranges too wide).

You can "fix" that by playing a preparatory club/diamond.

 

1♣ 1x

1NT = 13-14

 

1♦ 1x

1NT = 15-17

 

This allows even a 1NT lowering to 9-11.

Lol.

[JanM]

The indirect effects (what happens in competition etc) I believe generally favour strong NT, but this is very difficult to prove one way or the other.

I found that an interesting comment, because my impression is the opposite - the main advantage I think I gain from playing a weak(ish) NT (12-14, sliding about half a point depending on vul) is on the hands where I don't open 1NT. And it's those hands that make it hard for me to adjust to playing a strong NT - my instincts are all wrong when one of us opens 1 of a minor and there's competition. So perhaps both Frances and I are thinking about what happens for us when playing an unfamiliar range. The competitive auctions become less comfortable for each of us without the experience we have from having played a lot of hands using our preferred NT range.

Could it be that Frances is playing in an environment that is dominated by weak NT, while you are playing in a strong NT environment?

 

I suspect that any significant advantage is more likely to be caused by opps that are unfamiliar with your methods (here NT range), than any technical merit.

That's true about hands where we open 1NT - then what the opponents are familiar with is important. But on the hands where we don't open 1NT, I think it's our familiarity with the sorts of hands partner will have and how different bids will work out (in competitive situations) that's more important. So I don't think that the fact that I play in a strong NT dominated culture and Frances in one where weak NT is more common is what influences our opinions about the hands where we don't open 1NT.

[mr1303]

In the UK, where "everyone" plays Acol, I prefer strong NT.

 

Online, where "everyone" plays some version of standard American, I prefer weak NT.

 

Maybe I just like being different.

[helene_t]

Lol Mark, me too.

[benlessard]

It mostly depend on the kind of stayman I play. Playing regular stayman i prefer a 3 pts range and even think that 3pts is slightly too wide. 12-14 NV & 15-17 vul are probably what i would like to play. Playing 2 way stayman ill play 11-14 with no hesitation.

 

 

The setup i prefer is that

 

1Nt------2C-

2D---- 2M is 4M invite (partner can pass with 3 and a minimum)

 

1Nt------2D (all other inv wich allow to stop in 2M when responder is inv with the long M)

 

A setup like this is excellent for INV hand but bad for slammish hands or hand where 5m is better than 3Nt.

 

With a setup like this the best ranges are 10-14 NV and 12-15 or 12-16 VUL. The problem we cause to the opps partially compensate for some missed game or when we going overboard (more rare then you think) , but the real gain come from having an extra rebid that allow opener to transfer in his 2nd suit allowing opener to make 3 natural bids instead of offshapes jumpshifts. Also to be able to stop in 1Nt with 19 facing 0-5 in a strong club setup is fun too.