2 auctions

[vuroth]

1.

1♣ 1♥

1♠ 3♥

 

2.

1♣ 1♥

1♠ 2♦*

2NT 3♥

 

* FSF

[1eyedjack]

One is forcing, the other not? I suggest that the first auction is non-forcing in standard, although there is convoluted argument for playing it the other way round (DEFINITELY a minority view).

[mtvesuvius]

I think the common treatment is that the first is Invitational, and the second is GF with 6+♥.

[HeavyDluxe]

Agree with what's been said.

[kenberg]

Agree. The direct jump to 3 is invitational with most modern players. As I remember my Goren, it was forcing. Goren has been dead for many years.

 

With one partner I have the agreement that ALL second round jumps to the three level by responder are invitational (well, except for a jump to 3NT). This is occasionally counter-intuitive: 1C-1S-1N-3H. We play it as 5-5 and invitational. If we want to force we start with new minor and then bid 3H. Also 1C-1S-1N-3D is invit. 1C-1S-1N-2D-2H-3D is forcing. Possibly one can think of cases where you would want to make an exception but the default agreement that a second round jump to the 3 level is passable unless defined otherwise can be useful. When wishing to force there are generally alternatives, and recalling that the direct route to the 3 level is invitational helps to sort out the meaning when the route is not direct.

[neilkaz]

I think the common treatment is that the first is Invitational, and the second is GF with 6+♥.

Agreed...well at least this is my understanding.

[vuroth]

Thanks guys. One of the wrinkles of fsf I'd never thought through before.

[orlam]

Thanks guys. One of the wrinkles of fsf I'd never thought through before.

You need an agreement whether FSF is forcing to game. (In the US, it is. I think Congress passed a law on that in 1856.)

[1eyedjack]

Thanks guys.  One of the wrinkles of fsf I'd never thought through before.

You need an agreement whether FSF is forcing to game. (In the US, it is. I think Congress passed a law on that in 1856.)

This sequence via 4th suit would be GF even if the 4th suit at the time was not. Certainly you need an agreement over whether 4th suit is GF, and if the OP does not have the agreement (one way or another) it is an important point. But strictly not relevant to the thread.

[Hanoi5]

the first is Invitational, and the second is GF with 6+♥

 

I agree with this.

[kenberg]

Although not the same auction, here is one that has a family resemblance:

 

1H 1S

2C 4C

 

This arose at the table. Of course it is not a jump to the three level but it is a jump to one short of game, and there was fsf available. So....?

 

I held

Qx

Axxxx

Ax

ATxx

 

However pard intends this there should be a play for 6C. Just your everyday 24 hcp slam.

 

We just discussed this and decided 4C is forcing. I have no idea what the bbo consensus is, if there is one. No doubt some would play this as asking for key cards but in fact I am better placed to decide on 6. If my majors were xx and AQxxx the slam would be much chancier. A forcing bid on a very two suited hand was just what was needed here. (6S also makes, 3N is down 1)

 

If 4C is forcing, this presumably means that 1H-1S-2C-2D-2N-3C, while also forcing, is less emphatic about playing in clubs. For example I could now trot out my modest spade support with a 3S bid. Or something. Opinions here are welcome. Of course.

[Finch]

If 4C is forcing, this presumably means that 1H-1S-2C-2D-2N-3C, while also forcing, is less emphatic about playing in clubs. For example I could now trot out my modest spade support with a 3S bid. Or something. Opinions here are welcome. Of course.

Yes.

 

I play that after this start to the auction, I can't invite in clubs at the 4-level, I either raise them to the 3-level or game force.

 

1H - 1S- 2C - 4C sets clubs as trumps and more or less demands that opener cue bid. The 4sf auction suggests some doubt about where to play, either level or strain.