Cavendish Invintational Pairs, 2004

[hrothgar]

Hi Fred

 

I do have a couple questions about what a Calcutta format is like from the perspective of a leading contender.

 

Most notably, have you and your partner had a formal discussion regarding a "reservation price"? I'm quite sure that if the top bid on you partnership were $5 or so, you'd probably want to go into business for yourselves...

 

It would be interesting to understand how you go about handicapping yourself.

[fred]

My partner, Brad Moss, and I are not a typical pair, but I can

tell you how we deal with this issue. I am not sure how other

players think about these things. Some are either so wealthy

that it is not important or cannot afford to get involved at all

(they typically have wealthy backers in this case). Most, however,

probably try to guess whether the Calcutta has handicapped them

well or not and choose to get involved only if they think that they

were signifcantly undervalued (not that it is easy for bridge players

to be objective about such things).

 

I am not a gambler by nature (yes I picked a strange place to

live!) and I have never involved myself in the Calcutta pool

(partly because I think it is almost always a bad bet, and partly

because I do not like the idea of being in a slam and knowing

that it will cost me several thousand dollars if I misguess

the play).

 

Fortunately my partner is very wealthy so the money he has

to invest to get involved in the Calcutta pool doesn't mean

very much to him. Also, he is a gambler by nature and he is

extremely confident in our partnership. As such, he tends to

get heavily involved in the Calcutta pool and is more than

happy to take my share of action that each pair is required

to buy.

 

There is a separate pool for the players that is generated by

the $2500 (I think) entry fees to this event. I do pay my share

of this (though I am sure Brad would be willing to do so if I

asked him). There are a few reasons I am willing to do this:

 

1) It is a much better bet since every pair pays the same for

their entry and a smaller % of the players pool is taken out to

cover tournament expenses than that which is taken out of

the Calcutta pool.

 

2) Fortunately I am in a position so that it won't kill me to

lose $1250.

 

3) Still $1250 means something to me and my partner know

this. I hope that the fact that I am willing to part with this

money shows him that I am confident about our chances.

 

You may be interested in knowing that, when we won the

Cavendish last year, I received a very nice check for $20,000

or so. I am not certain how much money Brad made, but suspect

it was roughly 10 times what I made.

 

And no, I did not resent having failed to gamble more money

on myself - I have no idea if we would have won if I had a

lot more money on the line, but I suspect this would have

impacted some of the bridge decisions that I made.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Flame]

I don't know who will win but i know who i want to win.

GO fred GO

[inquiry]

My first 20K on Fred and Brad, I will hold my other 80K in reserve until we can figure out who is the best buy.(and Fred, don't buy your own shares.. i don't want you thinking about money so you can win for me). :)

[slothy]

Ah Well, seems like the Cavendish organisers missed my partner's and my name out of the Cavendish Invitational Pairs web-site listing AGAIN for the second year running....don't you just hate it when that happens???

 

Despite your lucid explanations, Fred, no closer to understanding how the Cavendish betting works :) Still, i doubt i will lose any sleep over it...

 

But i am not a betting man myself either....Last time i put a bet on anything was an egg-and-spoon race in the second grade and one of the opponents to my protegé had glued the egg to the spoon. 15 strawberry lollipops is worth a lot to a kid you know (Especially when you got them in exchange for a pot of glue ;) ) !!

 

however, if forced into the corner of the barrel would bet this way:-

 

$20,000 Balicki - Zmudnqtrwprzski (got a 'feeling' this year)

 

[oops had to wipe my monitor with the spluttering]

 

$15,000 Brad Moss - Whats-his-name-again

 

$12,435 Steve Weinstein- Bobby Levin

 

(Weinstein and Levin only out of sympathy as they seemed to have aged 30 years between them since they last won it :) )

 

Would like to put money on Zia, but he too much of a loose cannon. Anyway, he 'borrowed' my lighter about 2 years ago to light the cigarette of a 'female friend' (yeah right and my name is Santa Claus) of his and never got it back so that forebodes bad karma.

 

Good Luck anyroad Fred. (If you play a hand like hand 16 in Series C of MasterBridge you bound to win :) )

 

Alex

 

PS if you talk to Zia can you ask him if i can have my lighter back?

[aisha759]

It would be interesting to see how many females will participate in this betting process.....

 

I know a few of the players (not personally) and would like to see the Egyptians win it (but I won't bet on it!) I'd rather spend my BBO$ on MasterBridge :) and shoes...

 

This is a tough crowd.. I'm off ;)

[fred]

I haven't really tried to explain how the betting works

at the Cavendish. Here goes:

 

- There are 2 separate pools of prize money, the "players

pool" and the "auction pool" (or "Calcutta pool")

 

- The money that goes into the players pool comes from

the $2500 (I think) entry fee that each pair has to pay to

play in the event. When the event is over, this money is

divided up among the top 8 or so finishers.

 

- The auction pool comes from an auction that takes place

the night before the Cavendish starts. Each of the 50 or so

pairs is "auctioned off".

 

- The betting for each pair starts at $10,000 (I think). If

nobody is willing to bet on a given pair, that pair is responsible

for "buying itself" for $10,000.

 

- The auctioneer (typically somone like Hamman or Zia) will

announce each pair, one at a time. Players and spectators can

then make bids (in increments of $500 I think). At some point

the bidding on each pair will stop (after "going, going, gone").

Whoever made the last bid then buys the pair in question for

whatever he bid.

 

- All of the money generated from the auction (typically close

to $1 million) is placed in a pool and, when the event ends, this

money is divided up among the people who purchased the leading

8 or so pairs.

 

- In almost all cases, when someone buys a pair he will attempt

to unload part of his investment to various people. So if, for

example, a given pair sells for $50,000 (about what the top pairs

typically sell for), other people might purchase the rights to 10%

of that pair for $5,000.

 

- There are some other minors rules too. For example, each pair

is required to purchase at least 10% of themselves from the

person who bought them. I think they have the right to buy up

to 40% of themselves if they want.

 

- The organizers try very hard to make sure that players who

have financial interests in each other meet at the table early in

the event. This is done to avoid the possibility of a pair that is

out of contention "dumping" (ie deliberately getting bad results)

in order to try to help the pairs that they own (and make money

as a result).

 

The auction itself is pretty exciting (at least it is the first time you

see it). Lots of wealthy and drunk bridge players spending absurd

sums of money in a very short period of time. Definitely worth

dropping in to watch if you happen to be in Vegas when the

Cavendish is being run.

 

Conventional wisdom is that it is almost never a smart bet to get

involved in the auction pool (unless you think that a given pair

was sold for considerably less than what they are worth relative

to the other pairs in the event).

 

Hope that helps. Let me know if anything is still unclear and I

will try to explain further.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[mishovnbg]

I like to have at least virtual money ;) .

 

$26000 -> Anreas Buratti - Massimo Lanzarotti

$21000 -> Cezary Balicki - Adam Zmudzinski

$11000 -> Aleksander Petrunin - Andrei Gromov

 

Misho

 

Edited: Sorry I didn't understand we need to "buy" pair, though we will bet on them. Also, let use Fred's rules and start with a minimum of $10k.

[Rain]

Thanks Fred for explaining bidding process. Exciting. Why do you say that you and Brad are not a typical pair?

 

Virtual auction, I guess each successive bid must be higher than the one before. For now I bid (most unscientifically, anyone want to develop a model for valuing players?)

 

$25000 on Fred/Brad Moss

$15000 on Doub/ Wildalvsky

$22000 on Duboin/Bocchi

 

Hope devoutly Fred wins hehe. Can't help thinking that since its good for us all if Fred wins, we should hedge by betting on someone else. Umm, unscientific diversification...

 

 

Rain

[Patapon]

Allez Fred!

A strong wind will blow from Paris too..

[Gerben47]

Sorry Misho, I will have to take Petrunin - Gromov from you. It's a steal :)

 

$ 15000 for them.

[1eyedjack]

I doubt that anyone at that level would ever consider "dumping", but even so I feel that it is asking for trouble if active players are allowed to have a financial interest in the success of other competitors.

[fred]

I like to think you are right that players at this level would

never "dump", but there is a LOT of money involved and

money can make people do strange things.

 

Agree it would be ideal if the players did not participate in

the auction, but the current formula has worked fine for

30+ years and, to the best of my knowledge, there has

never been a dumping scandal.

 

Besides that, it would be hard to raise the kind of money

that is generated in the auction pool (which is the main

reason the Cavendish is such a strong and prestigious

event) without the particapation of the players in the

auction (especially the wealthy sponsors - there is an

unwritten rule that they are only allowed to play in this event

if they are willing to invest heavily in the betting).

 

Best possible solution would be to have a major corporation

put up the $1 million in prize money and not have any kind

of auction at all. Unfortunately the organizers of bridge

tournaments have been unable to attract sponsors that are

willing to spend money like this on our game.

 

I think the current format and rules makes for the best

possible big money event given the practical limitions that

currently exist.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[mrdct]

A "vugraph" of the Cavendish auction would be sensational. Presumably it would possible to open a dummy vugraph table in BBO and have the operator provide a running commentary of the auction as each pair gets auctioned off, perhaps with some other commentators involved giving some background on the pairs as they come up for auction.

[fred]

I will see if I can arrange this. What will be required:

 

1) A phone line set up in the room where the auction takes place

 

2) A person to type in the bids as they are made

 

We did this once before, but used a chat room instead of a table.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[slothy]

Oops noticed that i did not bid over your opening bid, Fred. Surprised the virtual auctioneer didnt notice...SACK HIM!!

 

$21,000 | Levin - Weinstein

$22,000 | Zmudzinski - Balicki (Sorry Misho :) We in a bidding WAR)

$25,500 | Moss-Gitleman

[easy]

my bets are:

 

20000 bocchi dubion (nicest world class players i have ever known)

15000 seamon ekblad (hometown boy made good)

20000 levin weinstein (never i mean never count bobby out of the mix)

 

 

Im not a gambler so im just putting my money on sentimental favorites (that is not to say i dont believe they can win)

 

btw i see no one has bet on harry tudor and his pard barnet shenkin..harry "the king" tudor is a 2 time winner. he won with seamon and subsequently soloway. Barnet is an excellent player (former partner of michael rosenberg) and is calm enough to deal with harry and his antics. ok ive talked myself into it i'll put

 

5000 on harry and barnet (im sure he will take at least 50% of this action)

[mishovnbg]

Jedy knight strike again :blink:

$23000 -> Cezary Balicki - Adam Zmudzinski (Sorry Slothy :) )

$16000 -> Aleksander Petrunin - Andrei Gromov(Sorry Gerben :) )

Misho

[andych]

OK Who is going to organise an auction. Virtual or bbo $?

First prize - 1 game with Ben

2nd prize - 2 games with Ben

Would be nice to be able to have betting on the outcome of

the Cavendish using BB$, but not sure it would be trivial for

us to set it up and besides, it is probably illegal.

 

How about a virtual auction with these rules:

 

1) Everyone has $100K of virtual money to play with

2) Minimum bid on a pair is $10K

3) Bids must be made in units of $1K

4) For the sake of simplicity, I suggest you use last year's

figures to determine the (virtual) prizes.

 

1st $231,350

2nd $148,724

3rd $99,150

4th $74,362

5th $66,100

6th $57,838

7th $49,576

8th $41,312

9th $33,050

10th $24,788

 

Forums is not exactly well-suited for conducting an auction,

but unless someone feels like putting together a web site

for this, I suppose we can make do.

 

I will open the bidding with:

 

$10K on Lew Stansby and Joanna Stansby

$15K on Bjorn Fallenius and Roy Welland

$20K on Bobby Levin and Steve Weinstein

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Does it mean that the pair who bought Fred-Brad win $231350 last year?

Who is that smart pair to bet on Fred-Brad? How much did he spend in the auction for Fred-Brad?

 

Any news whether the auction would be broadcasted?

[Aberlour10]

According to my first post in this thread I invest all my virtuell money

in two pairs...

 

$ 51000 on Balicki-Zmudzinski

$ 49000 on Petrunin-Gromov

 

sorry guys :blink:

 

Robert

[inquiry]

Sorry Fred, my very generous bid to purchase you and Brad has been trumped.... So I have all my 100K back. I think you are now overpriced. :-(

 

So, I will try to find some bargains,

 

10,000 for Hammon-Zia

10,000 for Woolsey and Stewart

10,000 for Fleisher - Martel

10,000 for Ekeblad and Rubin

10,000 for Fantoni and Nunes

10,000 for Chemla and Ferraro,

10,000 for Bramley and Compton

16,000 for Fallenius and Welland

10,000 for Greco and Hampson

 

BTW, when is our virtual auction going to end?

 

Ben

[luis]

My bets:

 

$ 30.000 Petrunin-Gromov

$ 25.000 Fallenius-Welland

 

On the side I played a tournament with a pool like the Cavendish some months ago (obviously in a 1-Zillion reduced scale). My partnership got the highest bid from a wealthy guy who put a lot of money to buy us.

Since we had no money we couldn't even bet for ourselves :-)

With one round to go we were having an excellent session, enough to win, so we decided to "blackmail" the guy who bought us :-)))) It was a lot of fun, the poor dude had to accept 40% of what he was just about to win while my pd flashed redouble cards in front of him and I was trying to "remember" the continuations after 1N-2c :-)

 

Of course it was just a joke, the tournament ended and we let everybody win what they deserved. But the lesson was: Never bet for crazy unstable young players. No matter how good they might be (or seem to be).

[Aberlour10]

Hola Luis,

 

I'm sorry, but you have to overbid my $49000 on Petrunin-Gromov :blink:

 

Robert

[Fluffy]

Hi guys!

 

I still know little but I wanna play, I´ll bet for the pairs I know tha are regular pairs so I at least don´t pick any sponsor.

 

 

Sorry had to edit because I missed some rules (took me 10 minuntes)

 

sincee it seems there is too much money otu there and not so much pairs worth it, I ll assure I at least get 1 pair for me :)

 

$100,000 Andrea Buratti - Massimo Lanzarotti

[the hog]

15,000 for Fantoni and Nunes

18,000 for Fallenius and Welland

15,000 for Greco and Hampson

 

Sorry Ben!

 

Ron