Claimrejects

[UdcaDenny]

All TD:s want to see who rejects valid claims. BBO shud do something about this mischief.

[vang]

what do you by mean "valid claims"? if claim is rejected, just get your tricks

[UdcaDenny]

I mean when its obvious that declarer will take the tricks he claim. Often an opponent rejects the claim to delay the play when he knows he will get a bad score. Dishonest stallers play to get an average 40% if its a clocked tour without adjustments. Other cases can be that opponent made a bad double and get sour seeing it will make.

[helene_t]

If someone complains about stalling I will try to look into it, if I have time. I recall a couple of calls I got about rejects of obvious claims, but at the time I came to the table the hand was almost played out already.

[jillybean]

I'd rather see the claim button removed completely. The real problems come with players who make a claim without stating a line and thats the vast majority of players who dont!

[Gerben42]

This is not really a problem unless you are a particularly lazy TD. After the round, just adjust in favour of the claiming side if it was a good claim. If not, adjust to something else.

 

The Bridge laws state that a claim finishes the board, and when a board is finished, some score (contract + result) should be reached.

 

When the board has been started, you should never let the A- / A- stand unless you have good reason to believe that both sides are guilty, or when you think you would have needed a weighted score that amounts to the same thing anyway.

 

If you have adamant claim-rejecters in your tourney, get rid of them and put them on enemy.

[jillybean]

If you have adamant claim-rejecters in your tourney, get rid of them and put them on enemy.

I think this is a little over the top. The players making the claims do not state a line and many players cant "see" the line of play and the result. Rather than getting rid of those who reject claims I think it would be better to educate players about the correct method of making a claim and follow the law book if a claim is rejected.

[barmar]

Maybe BBO could require people to enter something in the explanation field, or perhaps this could be an open the host can choose. This wouldn't prevent people from putting nonsense there, although if the explanation is recorded the TD would be able to tell what he said.

[Gerben42]

I think this is a little over the top. The players making the claims do not state a line and many players cant "see" the line of play and the result.

 

These are people who don't accept claims even if they are obvious. If you as TD get called and tell them to accept the claim but they don't - then you blacklist them.

[jtfanclub]

I've seen a lot of false claim rejects, and it's happened to me a time or two (I've accepted the claim, partner says he accepted the claim, and yet it was rejected).

 

Dunno if it's a misclick, or hitting a key on the keyboard, or what. But I'd never ban somebody because I thought they rejected a claim.

[matmat]

i'd just ban everyone who claims or rejects claims with malice.

[UdcaDenny]

Thx all for taking interest in this question but I feel that u missed the essence of what I mean. I have seen so many times a game delayed for minutes at a table with an open claimbox which is not replied by both opponents. When TD asks who doesnt accept claim noone answers. As TD I often recommended players not to use the claimbox as it often took much longer to finish the game though its intention is to save time. As I also preferred to arrang clocked tours it was very frustrating not being able to see who sabotaged and stalled to make time run out. Some persons are cunning and go for 40% knowing that they are expecting less than 10. Same tool shud be given TD regarding undo reject, a small textbox saying who denies, EWN or S, then I dont have to adress both to find out who caused the problem.

 

Denny

[jdonn]

I think it would be a good feature for the tournament director to be able to see which (if either) player has accepted the claim.

[jillybean]

I mean when its obvious that declarer will take the tricks he claim. Often an opponent rejects the claim to delay the play when he knows he will get a bad score. Dishonest stallers play to get an average 40% if its a clocked tour without adjustments. Other cases can be that opponent made a bad double and get sour seeing it will make.

The opps have the right to contest a claim and its the TD's job to review the hand and decide the result. Its also the TD's responsibility to ensure players are keeping to time and not delaying boards.

This is why 'no adjustment' tournaments are silly and may even attract unscrupulous players who will hold up a board for a better result.

[Elianna]

Thx all for taking interest in this question but I feel that u missed the essence of what I mean. I have seen so many times a game delayed for minutes at a table with an open claimbox which is not replied by both opponents. When TD asks who doesnt accept claim noone answers.

Denny

Sometimes Flash has a problem with claims. I knkow that it's happened to Adam several times that when an opponent claims, it doesn't appear on his screen.

[UdcaDenny]

I just played a tour where one guy doubled 4D which made with one overtrick. In the end of game when all was clear declarer claimed and it was rejected. Just after that the doubler logged out. It could maybe be his partner that rejected but I dont think so. Anyway TD had trouble to get a sub to have the hand finished.

[jillybean]

I just played a tour where one guy doubled 4D which made with one overtrick. In the end of game when all was clear declarer claimed and it was rejected. Just after that the doubler logged out. It could maybe be his partner that rejected but I dont think so. Anyway TD had trouble to get a sub to have the hand finished.

 

 

The TD should have adjusted the board, then put a sub in if needed.

[paulg]

Thx all for taking interest in this question but I feel that u missed the essence of what I mean. I have seen so many times a game delayed for minutes at a table with an open claimbox which is not replied by both opponents. When TD asks who doesnt accept claim noone answers.

Denny

Sometimes Flash has a problem with claims. I knkow that it's happened to Adam several times that when an opponent claims, it doesn't appear on his screen.

Not just Flash. Claims appear to be one of those asynchronous events that can sometimes get lost in the interweb - either the posting or accepting.

 

p

[paulg]

Although I understand the frustration this causes the tournament directors, BBO has this position and I think you just have to work within this.

 

BBO Guidelines

 

All members have the right to reject an undo, redeal or claim request for any reason. Members are not required to explain why they have rejected such a request and it is inappropriate for a player to be offended if one of his requests is rejected.

[BillHiggin]

Although I understand the frustration this causes the tournament directors, BBO has this position and I think you just have to work within this.

 

BBO Guidelines

 

All members have the right to reject an undo, redeal or claim request for any reason. Members are not required to explain why they have rejected such a request and it is inappropriate for a player to be offended if one of his requests is rejected.

Is there not at least some conflict with:

LAW 74 - CONDUCT AND ETIQUETTE

...

B. Etiquette

 

As a matter of courtesy a player should refrain from:

...

4. prolonging play unnecessarily (as in playing on although he knows that all the tricks are surely his) for the purpose of disconcerting an opponent.

[jillybean]

Straying off topic here but if we want to use the laws there was a law broken before Law74.

 

LAW 68 - CLAIM OR CONCESSION OF TRICKS

 

C. Clarification Required for Claim

A claim should be accompanied at once by a statement of clarification as to

the order in which cards will be played, the line of play or defence through

which the claimer proposes to win the tricks claimed.

 

D. Play Ceases

After any claim or concession, play ceases. All play subsequent to a claim or

concession shall be voided by the Director. If the claim or concession is

acquiesced in, Law 69 applies; if it is disputed by any player (dummy

included), the Director must be summoned immediately to apply Law 70 or

Law 71, and no action may be taken pending the Director’s arrival.

[Old York]

Hi all

 

There is also a problem with players who claim all the remaining tricks, by accident or intent, when oppo obviously have tricks to win, and inexperienced players allow the claim. this is an invisible problem because nobody notices

 

The claim button is there to speed up play on hands where the outcome should be obvious to all. No statement of claim should be necessary in these circumstances, but some rule-merchants often deliberately refuse valid claims hoping that declarer will get rattled and mis-click.

 

Even if this happens and the director is called too late, declarer should still insist on an adjustment.

 

However, I do not agree with your original statement that All TD:s want to see who rejects valid claims. BBO shud do something about this mischief.

 

TDs do not need this info, simply adjust and smile. If the Tourney says no adj, declarer could cancel the claim and play on

 

Tony (Duke of York)

 

p.s. Can anyone explain why unplayed boards get Ave== but unfinished boards get Ave-- ???

 

p.p.s I have just noticed that UdcaDenny made a very similar post Feb 10 2006 so obviously did not get the answer he wanted?

 

p.p.p.s Post has been edited to avoid offence (sorry)

[jillybean]

The claim button is there to speed up play on hands where the outcome should be obvious to all. No statement of claim should be necessary in these circumstances, but the rule-merchants often refuse valid claims hoping that declarer will get rattled and mis-click.

 

Way too much time has been spent on this storm in a tea cup. Some players will abuse it, some TD’s wont handle it well but its not broken.

This is both inaccurate and offensive. ‘Obvious to all’ is unworkable, who exactly decides when it is obvious? Players reject claims for many reasons, intentionally and unintentionally and to suggest that players who follow the rules do so in an attempt to rattle the opps is offensive.

 

Way too much time has been spent on this storm in a tea cup. Some players will abuse it, some TD’s wont handle it well but its not broken.

[Trumpace]

The claim button is there to speed up play on hands where the outcome should be obvious to all. No statement of claim should be necessary in these circumstances, but the rule-merchants often refuse valid claims hoping that declarer will get rattled and mis-click.

 

Way too much time has been spent on this storm in a tea cup. Some players will abuse it, some TD’s wont handle it well but its not broken.

This is both inaccurate and offensive. ‘Obvious to all’ is unworkable, who exactly decides when it is obvious? Players reject claims for many reasons, intentionally and unintentionally and to suggest that players who follow the rules do so in an attempt to rattle the opps is offensive.

I don't find York's statement offensive, but claiming that almost every rejection of claim has malice behind it is wrong, that I agree and I am a little surprised that you find it offensive.

 

I agree with the rule of the requirement of stating a line of play, but in face to face bridge. Online, some people might have trouble typing etc, so some concession has to be made when no line of play is given when making a valid claim.

 

About obvious claims, you are right that it might not be obvious to all, but you do agree that there are some claims which must be obvious to all (especially if profile says Expert :)), don't you? I have seen two kinds of people: who reject such claims because they don't honestly see it and those who reject it even if they do see it and hope that the opps make a mistake and sometimes, they even come with up tricky ways to induce a mistake. Case in point (true story, btw):

 

Playing in Main Club, I was in a 5C contract with AKJx trumps (in dummy) facing T98xxx in hand. I had lost two tricks and had the rest if trumps came in. When I cashed the Club A, RHO showed out. I then entered my hand (to which LHO followed) in a side suit and then claimed (yeah, i should have stated a line of play and if LHO lawyered up, he would have won I suppose). It was rejected. When i played a trump towards dummy, LHO holding Qx, played the Q very quickly! I almost played the J but luckily I did notice that it was the Q and played the K. When I claimed again, it was accepted. I found this very amusing :)

 

weird.. long post about something that I don't care much about!

[jillybean]

I don't find York's statement offensive, but claiming that almost every rejection of claim has malice behind it is wrong, that I agree and I am a little surprised that you find it offensive.

And Im surprised that youre surprised that I take offense at being labeled a cheat if I reject a claim. :) Ive said too much already.