Sanity Check

[Apollo81]

(1♠)-2♠-(3♥)-p

(3♠)-pa-(4♠)-all pass

 

♣A lead (you play A from AK and UDCA)

 

___Kxx

___QJ

___AQTxxx

___T9

 

A74

753

K97

8642

 

Would you play a different card if dummy had ♣Qx instead?

[TimG]

If this is count, I give honest count: the deuce.

 

If this is attitude, I encourage since I don't want partner to think I have a heart card: the deuce.

 

So, either way: the deuce.

[Echognome]

I would play the 8. The last thing I want partner doing is trying to underlead his ♣K or trying to give me an overruff of dummy (and thus giving declarer a ruff and sluff). Partner will have to work out what to do next, but I will try my best on the ♣K by playing my lowest club.

 

Edit: The above is assuming udca. That is to say, I'm going to discourage the lead. If we are playing standard count and attitude, then I am playing the 2.

[brianshark]

Assuming this is an ace for attitude situation I discourage because I have neither ♣ honour, nor doubleton nor strong reason for him to continue this suit. (And would also discourage if dummy had the Q.)

 

BTW, partner will already suspsect you don't have a heart card because you didn't smack 3♥. So once you tell him you don't fancy a club continuation he can probably put the ♦K in your hand anyway. Let him figure out the defense.

[mtvesuvius]

The duece, for many reasons:

 

1) I don't want partner to lead a ♥

2) I am giving honest count

3) For some weird reason, subconsciously, I'm also giving suit preference B)

[TimG]

Make the deal something like this:

[hv=n=sk32hqjdaqt654ct9&w=s9ht9864d82cak753&e=sa74h753dk97c8642&s=sqjt865hak2dj3cqj]399|300|[/hv]and, isn't it important to cash the other high club at trick 2?

[Hanoi5]

Make the deal something like this:

Dealer:  ?????

Vul:  ????

Scoring:  Unknown

 

 

♠  K32

♥  QJ

♦  AQT654

♣  T9

 

♠  9

♥  T9864

♦  82

♣  AK753

 

♠  A74

♥  753

♦  K97

♣  8642

 

♠  QJT865

♥  AK2

♦  J3

♣  QJ

 

 

and, isn't it important to cash the other high club at trick 2?

 

Make that the deal and I'm not playing with that partner again, I mean, my Michael's are not that bad.

[TimG]

Make that the deal and I'm not playing with that partner again, I mean, my Michael's are not that bad.

Well, give partner the ♥K and declarer ♥A42 (making declarer's hand look more like a weak two-bid) and there are more safe options for him at trick 2, but a heart isn't one of them (it blows a non-setting trick). And, a discouraging club could easily convince partner that we have something in hearts (even without a double of 3♥).

[ArtK78]

I have had this discussion (argument?) with a partner of mine for some time.

 

To me, it is clear to discourage (whatever your carding agreements are). Do you want partner to play a third round of clubs? If the answer is no, then discourage.

 

The only exception to this is an absolutely clear cash out situation. If that is the case, give honest count, as count is what partner needs. In this situation, he needs to know if you can win the third round of clubs. You can't, so do not encourage.

 

Suppose declarer held QJxx of clubs, partner had 5 clubs, and declarer will only lose 2 clubs if there is no overruff of dummy at trick 3 (or trump promotion). Wouldn't declarer drop the Q and J of clubs under partner's A and K? If you show an even number with 2 and with 4, partner will never be able to work it out. But if you encourage with 2 because you want a third round of clubs played and you discourage with 4 since you do not want a third round of clubs played, partner will do what is right.

 

[Note: If you want to falsecard to give declarer the impression that you are going to ruff the third round in order to create a trump promotion out of thin air, then that is another reason to encourage]

[Phil]

Something is a little fishy here. Either pard made a really lousy Michaels call or our LHO is a pretty light. It seems that pard might have led the A from A-empty (it is MPs after all).

 

In general, my style is to lie a little with the 4. This might initially trick partner into thinking we have 84 or 64, but what we would like to do is for pard to cash one more club (we'll echo with the 2), and then wait for our tricks

 

The 2 will certainly get pard to continue hoping for a promo. Unless you've raised, don't give count with 4.

 

The 8 might lead to a fatal heart shift, although the non-double of 3♥ should keep pard from shifting.

 

There are some interesting Obvious Shift implications here, but I would assume that does not apply.

[Apollo81]

wow, i guess this decision wasnt as automatic as i thought

[mikeh]

I play the 2.. honest count...you can't do everything.. to me this is a count situation. On most auctions, opening leader will be able to deduce declarer's shape sufficiently that he won't make many 2 card errors.. and our length and possession of so many low spots means that opener's cards will be revealing.

 

Yes, declarer can falsecard, but I can't control that.

 

For those of you who don't give honest count, some questions:

 

Has your partner with, say AKQxx, never continued the 3rd round, 'knowing' that it was a safe exit? Yes, he'll continue with the Q at trick 2, but the damage has been done, in terms of your signalling

 

If you falsecard with a middle spot...and partner continues the K, what card do you play? If you play a higher card, why won't he place you with a doubleton? Surely you wouldn't show a 4 card holding by concealing the 2? And if you play a lower card, again... maybe he'll continue the 'safe' 3rd round? If you falsecard with the 8, you have no choice next time, altho I suppose the 2 would say don't lead hearts.

 

Oh, I know that the look of dummy's diamond suit may make him want to be aggressive, but maybe he wants to shorten dummy's trumps to protect your holding, or maybe he hopes you have diamonds under control.

 

As to whether this is count or attitude.. I am willing to learn why attitude is superior.. I play a lot of attitude and infrequent count, but this looks like a count scenario to me.

[Codo]

If this is a count situation I would be honest and it would be simple.

 

But we play K of count, so it is attitude with my reg. partner.

Can you see any hand where partner with AKxxx wants an attitude signal from you? Maybe a diamond void? I don't know. Anyway, I would give my honest signal, so the 8 is it. I doubt that he will switch with AKxxx. I guess he will cash the king, see my two (suit preference) and we still beat it.

[Phil]

I play the 2.. honest count...you can't do everything.. to me this is a count situation. On most auctions, opening leader will be able to deduce declarer's shape sufficiently that he won't make many 2 card errors.. and our length and possession of so many low spots means that opener's cards will be revealing.

 

Yes, declarer can falsecard, but I can't control that.

 

For those of you who don't give honest count, some questions:

 

Has your partner with, say AKQxx, never continued the 3rd round, 'knowing' that it was a safe exit? Yes, he'll continue with the Q at trick 2, but the damage has been done, in terms of your signalling

 

If you falsecard with a middle spot...and partner continues the K, what card do you play? If you play a higher card, why won't he place you with a doubleton? Surely you wouldn't show a 4 card holding by concealing the 2? And if you play a lower card, again... maybe he'll continue the 'safe' 3rd round? If you falsecard with the 8, you have no choice next time, altho I suppose the 2 would say don't lead hearts.

 

Oh, I know that the look of dummy's diamond suit may make him want to be aggressive, but maybe he wants to shorten dummy's trumps to protect your holding, or maybe he hopes you have diamonds under control.

 

As to whether this is count or attitude.. I am willing to learn why attitude is superior.. I play a lot of attitude and infrequent count, but this looks like a count scenario to me.

Maybe it's just because I read Partnership Defense by Woolsey, but I don't see how partner won't play you for a promotion when you low-hi here.

 

When I hi-lo here, looking at this dummy, I don't see why pard would want to continue clubs although I suppose he could play declarer for KJTxx Axxx K xxx. Noble never gave us dummy's spot, so it's not clear whether or not a spade entry can be forced.

 

The 2 shows count but also attitude with a doubleton or Qxx for me with this dummy, but I think pard should be alive to the fact I could have xxxx and not want a 3rd round.

[kfay]

Either way you're going to cause problems for partner depending on whether or not he has the ♥K.

 

I'd encourage, though. I don't think my usual partners would take some encouraging signal as saying 'underlead your K,' just... continue the suit please.

[Fluffy]

I show attitude on this position, my principles are not to tell partner what to do, but to tell him waht I have. But just in case I rather play ♣6, the 8 might sound mandatory for him.

 

Looking at this running diamonds, he will not need many encouragement to cash the second club, as long as he doesn't think we can get on lead with ♣Q.

[MFA]

♣8.

 

I think it's clear to discourage.

 

Not only do I neither have ♣Q for an underlead, nor ♣xx for a trump promotion - which it should show is a judgement call.

 

But what can reasonably go wrong if I discourage in clubs? If partner decides to play me for the ♥A in addition to his king, he will cash a second club first. Upon seeing my ♣2 on the second round, he should change track.

 

If he doesn't have precisely the ♥K, it is clear for him to cash a second club and then shift to hearts.

[TimG]

I show attitude on this position, my principles are not to tell partner what to do, but to tell him waht I have. But just in case I rather play ♣6, the 8 might sound mandatory for him.

How will he know the 6 isn't mandatory? he won't know you have the 8, he'll even expect that you don't when you don't discourage with your highest available spot card.

[Fluffy]

That's the key, he won't know, and since he doesn't know he won't gamble not to cash ♣K. With the 8 he might know.

[Fluffy]

By the way, if dummy has ♣Qx instead we show count (same with a King lead with Jxx(x) in dummy and Queen lead with Kx(x) in dummy)

[Lobowolf]

If part of the analysis is "nothing can go wrong, because he'll cash a second club anyway," and we want him to cash 2 clubs, but not try to cash the third, then the 4 followed by the 2 makes more sense to me. It probably increases the odds that he'll play the second club, and it probably increases the odds that he doesn't play one if we ever get a hand where we want our attitude signal to apply to his trick 2 action (edit: and play the 8 at trick two on THAT hand), not his trick 3 action.

[MFA]

If part of the analysis is "nothing can go wrong, because he'll cash a second club anyway," and we want him to cash 2 clubs, but not try to cash the third, then the 4 followed by the 2 makes more sense to me.  It probably increases the odds that he'll play the second club, ...

Why? I don't see it.

 

For me it seems that it only increases the odds that he will try to underlead the clubs to get a heart through to his king.

This is a live possibility, since we only need ♣Q + 1 trick to set the contract that way.

 

I don't use soft middle card signals in obscure situations such as this one. Either I play a high spot or I play a low spot. The middle ones are reserved for highly enlightened situations.

[Lobowolf]

If part of the analysis is "nothing can go wrong, because he'll cash a second club anyway," and we want him to cash 2 clubs, but not try to cash the third, then the 4 followed by the 2 makes more sense to me.  It probably increases the odds that he'll play the second club, ...

Why? I don't see it.

 

For me it seems that it only increases the odds that he will try to underlead the clubs to get a heart through to his king.

This is a live possibility, since we only need ♣Q + 1 trick to set the contract that way.

 

I don't use soft middle card signals in obscure situations such as this one. Either I play a high spot or I play a low spot. The middle ones are reserved for highly enlightened situations.

Sorry...I was overly fixated on "continue or shift." I guess the ultimate question is about the utility of "underlead or shift," and underlead is more likely to be useful, so an encouraging card should show the queen.

 

 

Edit: Second re-think. The same analysis that you used in response to my post calls into question part of your initial analysis, though. You said you'd discourage because you didn't have a doubleton or the queen. If that means you'd encourage with a doubleton, then you're still running into the problem of partner underleading in that situation.

[Lobowolf]

So I'm coming back to the first question is, does a low card suggest an underlead (or that an underlead is ok)? If so, we can't encourage with a small doubleton. If a low card doesn't suggest an underlead, then presumably nothing does, so we can never help partner out on the underlead decision, but we can encourage with a doubleton.

 

It seems like we should encourage with a small doubleton, which in turn implies that the encouraging card shouldn't have implications re: underleading. So I'll go back to the 4, followed by the 2.

[andy_h]

I agree with MFA. When I give attitude signals, it normally means I don't have certain card(s) in this suit that you asked for rather than I really don't like this suit and I have something else better so please please switch. It can mean that in different situations and of course all of this would also be based on judgement on what cards can be seen in dummy. For example in this one like MFA said, my signal now here and encourage partner to underlead the club to get a heart through to his king based on this dummy.