Finch Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 You hold [hv=d=n&v=e&s=sq752h6dqj74c10842]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv] You have an uncontested auction: 2C - 2D2H - 2S3H - ? 2C = game forcing or good 22+ balanced2D = negative or waiting (you don't play 2H as a double negative)2H = hearts or FG balanced2S = relay (denies a few fairly obscure hand types)3H = game forcing with primary hearts. No second suit, and not suitable for a 3NT rebid which would show a balanced hand with 6 hearts suggesting 9 tricks is easier than 10. Now what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 3NT. Why is this a problem? Don't want to get pard excited. If he moves on, it will be at his own risk. If pard could have 4 spades, there might be a problem, but, with no 2nd suit, there's really not much to it. At least I think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtvesuvius Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 3NT. If partner cannot stand playing notrump, he can pull to 4♥. Any other move is at his own risk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Mark me down for 4♥ From the sounds of things, partner rates to hold either a 6331 or a 7321. 3NT might work out well if partner's stiff is in Diamonds, but 2/3rds of the time, its going to be in a black suit. The opps rate to cash 4+ tricks from the get go. I'm all for going for the higher scoring partial, but this is a case where I'm expecting to take a lot more tricks in Hearts than in NT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 agree with Richard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I already showed a negativ bid, so 3 NT should paint a quite nice picture: Some values here and there, no heart fit. Yes 4 Heart may be better, but maybe partner will bid it in that case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 3NT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 3N. 4♥ sounds too encouraging and I don't want to get partner excited. While I have a little 'extra', it's in the form of a few quacks. Two questions for Frances:, 1. Have you discussed with Jeffrey the difference between 3♥ and 4♥ (over 2♠)? 2. Would pard's 4m over 3N be natural or a self-cue? This may depend on what a direct 3♥ is over 2♦ I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 If 3NT isn't the right bid then I've really got to go back to the drawing board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Two questions for Frances:, 1. Have you discussed with Jeffrey the difference between 3♥ and 4♥ (over 2♠)? 2. Would pard's 4m over 3N be natural or a self-cue? This may depend on what a direct 3♥ is over 2♦ I think. I wasn't playing with Jeffrey; and I haven't discussed these with him because we don't play Kokish. However, with the partner I was playing with here.: - 4♥ over 2♠ is rare, but it would show a (sub)minimum 2C opening with 7+ hearts - a self cue(ish), because partner could have bid 3m naturally over 2S to show hearts and a minor. By self cue I mean a trial bid rather than just a first round control i.e. partner would prefer to bid an AQx fragment rather than a void. A direct 3♥ over 2♦ would set trumps and ask for first/second round controls (immediate cue = first round control, 3NT = second round control somewhere, sign-off = no controls). Partner will take this slower route either because he is interested in alternative contracts (e.g. 3NT, or if we broke the Kokish relay), or because he wants to know more about our hand than just whether we have controls or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 [hv=d=n&v=e&s=sq752h6dqj74c10842]133|100|Scoring: MPYou have an uncontested auction:2C - 2D2H - 2S3H - ?2C = game forcing or good 22+ balanced2D = negative or waiting (you don't play 2H as a double negative)2H = hearts or FG balanced2S = relay (denies a few fairly obscure hand types)3H = game forcing with primary hearts. No second suit, and not suitable for a 3NT rebid which would show a balanced hand with 6 hearts suggesting 9 tricks is easier than 10.Now what?IMO 4♥ = 10, 3N = 8, Something absurd = 2.One of our queens is likely to be of use in 4♥ I worry about 3N because partner says he doesn't have a hand suitable for 3N. Suppose he has ♠AKJ ♥KQJxxx ♦AKx ♣x or a similar hand with the black suits reversed.[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Nigel, if partner holds that hand why would he pass 3NT? What is he playing us for where 4♥ is not either about as good or far better? Even if we had a club stopper like KJxx he wouldn't want to pass in most cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I bid 3N, but I lack any strong conviction. Question: have I shown weakness yet? My guess, based on the OP, is that I haven't. Would 4minor here be a cue bid in support of hearts? Anyway.. as others have stated... 3N allows partner to pull, and he won't be under any misunderstanding about my lack of support, while 4♥ is committal. 'Flexible' is the expert's excuse.. 3N.. it's more flexible than 4♥ B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 4H. 3S is out of the question, since I assume, that p denied a 4 card spade suit. So it is either 3NT or 4H, I would go with 4H. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 4H on the basis that one or both of our Queens will be working in 4H, but we could be wide open in clubs in 3N. Plus, from what I have read of the explanations, it would appear that partner has 6 or 7 non-solid hearts, so we rate to have to lose one, if not two heart tricks in NT. This may give the opponents enough tempo to establish their suit, but in 4H, partner might be able to ruff their long suit tricks. jmoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Nigel, if partner holds that hand why would he pass 3NT? What is he playing us for where 4♥ is not either about as good or far better? Even if we had a club stopper like KJxx he wouldn't want to pass in most cases. Fair enough; my fault for putting up an aunt sally, for Josh to knock down; but IMO it isn't easy to construct a ♥ single-suiter for partner, with which he happily passes 3N now; but earlier judged unsiuitable for 3N. Perhaps Josh is brave enough to have a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I don't think it matters if he would never pass 3NT, it's just a matter of describing our hand type. We have scattered honors and no heart support at all, 3NT is the way to send that message. If we bid 4♥ who is to say partner is finished bidding? In any case, I didn't take the explanation to mean he had promised a shortage somewhere. Just that he wasn't notrumpy. I think he will have a lot of balanced hands that can pass 3NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Mark me down for 4♥ From the sounds of things, partner rates to hold either a 6331 or a 7321. 3NT might work out well if partner's stiff is in Diamonds, but 2/3rds of the time, its going to be in a black suit. The opps rate to cash 4+ tricks from the get go. I'm all for going for the higher scoring partial, but this is a case where I'm expecting to take a lot more tricks in Hearts than in NT... Against that 4♥ will encourage partner in ways that 3NT will not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I'm all for going for the higher scoring partial, but this is a case where I'm expecting to take a lot more tricks in Hearts than in NT... I don't think it matters if he would never pass 3NT, it's just a matter of describing our hand type. We have scattered honors and no heart support at all, 3NT is the way to send that message. If we bid 4♥ who is to say partner is finished bidding? In any case, I didn't take the explanation to mean he had promised a shortage somewhere. Just that he wasn't notrumpy. I think he will have a lot of balanced hands that can pass 3NT.Against that 4♥ will encourage partner in ways that 3NT will not.Jdonn's and Cascade's theories are interesting but would they rebid 3N with say ♠9xxx ♥x ♦8xxx ♣7xxxOn the contrary, I feel that a case can be made for 3N to be (natural and) stronger than 4♥ although I'm not sure that a couple of queens is strong enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Do we get to see the 2♣ opener? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Jdonn's and Cascade's theories are interesting but would they rebid 3N with say ♠9xxx ♥x ♦8xxx ♣7xxx I would bid 3♠, which is a terrible bid, as is 4♥, as is 3NT. Sometimes on bidding forums you hold 13 deuces and have no bid to make that is in any way good, what do you want me to tell you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I would bid 3♠, which is a terrible bid, as is 4♥, as is 3NT. Sometimes on bidding forums you hold 13 deuces and have no bid to make that is in any way good, what do you want me to tell you?That our bidding styles differ when Partner has shown a GF single-suiter in ♥? B)With no specified agreement, a Yarborough and a 4 card ♠ suit, Jdonn would bid a gutsy 3♠ :). No wonder Jdonn is such an accomplished card-player :)Without prior agreement, 4♥ seems a better candidate for a catch-all weak bid :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I would bid 3♠, which is a terrible bid, as is 4♥, as is 3NT. Sometimes on bidding forums you hold 13 deuces and have no bid to make that is in any way good, what do you want me to tell you?That our bidding styles differ when Partner has shown a GF single-suiter in ♥? B)With no specified agreement, a Yarborough and a 4 card ♠ suit, Jdonn would bid a gutsy 3♠ :). No wonder Jdonn is such an accomplished card-player :)Without prior agreement, 4♥ seems a better candidate for a catch-all weak bid :) The point of the 3♠ bid is that sometimes partner will bid 3NT, which we can happily pass. On the OP hand we don't mind declaring 3NT since at least we have a few queens and we don't mind if the opponents lead one of those suits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I have been keeping an eye out for the results on this type of hand for a while, and my current theory is that it is generally right to play in 4H on this type of hand, not 3NT. There's the additional point that hasn't been mentioned that the strong hand is declaring hearts while the weak hand is declaring NT (edit: just seen jdonn has noticed that with his brave 3S bid). I can't claim yet to have proved my theory is correct as these hands aren't very frequent, but my sample of 3 hands so far supports it. On this occasion 4H is, I think, the right spot. Partner has AK10AQJ98xAKxx I don't think partner is going to pull 3NT. Or rather, if he is, you might as well play 3NT as conventional. I do appreciate the concern that 4H might sound more encouraging the 3NT; however if partner is party to your theory about the right game, that won't happen. In fact, nige1's suggestion that 3NT should show more values than 4H, rather than less, has some sense to it, although we haven't discussed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 3NT > 4♥ does follow the fast arrival principle B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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