Who is most to blame for the bad contract?

[Helmer]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=saq3h10964dkj53ckj&s=skj64hda2ca1097654]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Biddings:

South opened 1 ♣

West overcalled 1 ♥

North 3 NT

 

All pass - and one down.

 

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South said he didn't want to go for (bid) 5 - 6 ♣, because of the poor suit, though usually partner would have some kind of club support - and another reason some if not for the many wasted points in hearts.

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North said you do not know how to bid, I promise club support (KJ !), and when you do not have heart stoppers you should move to clubs etc.

 

What do you think?

[mike777]

I think very hard hand.

 

 

 

1c=ok

 

over 1h I will risk pass.......very hard hand.

 

Now pard rebids.

[EricK]

Not an easy hand, and I don't really like 3NT. But I think leaving partner in 3NT is ignoring both the suit-orientedness of this hand and its massive slam potential (even taking into account the likely wasted values in ♥, you don't need much in the other suits from partner to make 6♣ seriously odds on)

[hotShot]

North can't bid 3NT without ♥ stopper and some ♣.

South ♣ will be of source of tricks in 3NT as well.

For a ♣ contract responders promised ♥ values are wasted, so a ♣ slam is less likely to make. So from South view 3NT is a reasonable contract.

[Codo]

Hard hand, I may had reproduce this biidng and hate it.

 

3 NT is bad w/O a full stopper, but you need to have good agreements to aks for a half stopper, so w/o these it can be a reasonable shoot opposite a pick up partner. Opposite a regular partner you should have a way to ask for help in HEarts.

(I can bid 2 heart followed by 3 Heart, but this is not standard).

 

South has an not too easy pass over 3 NT, but opposite a balanced hand with good heart values, 6 Club is far far away.

 

So to me it is north only.

[mtvesuvius]

North. In every partnership there should be a method of asking for partial stoppers. Mine, like Roland's is 2♥ followed by 3♥. After North asks for a partial stopper, South's hand improves alot. Over 3♥ South might just shoot out 6♣. Otherwise 4♣ rebid or something else forcing will work well. South cannot pull 3NT, partner "promised" heart values, which are known to be wasted. Partner should have a few clubs, but 6♣ is out of the question.

[ggwhiz]

I voted only north. When I bid 3nt those red suits are reversed.

 

I don't mind 2♥ or pass at all and if I'm in the mood and depending on my pards sense of humour, I might even make a negative dbl followed by notrump hoping pard gets the idea that I have 3 spades and doubt about the strain.

 

Jumping on pard when they run hearts after this auction is particularly clueless when you have so many alternatives to 3nt.

[mcphee]

N 100%. If N believes this is a hand to play 3N and then choose to remark S should bid differently the player has a serious problem. I would never dream of pulling 3N as S.

 

I might bid 2D rejecting the neg dble as a 4-3 S fit does not appeal with the long trump hand needing to ruff H. I would not be upset if partner made a neg dble with this hand either.

[P_Marlowe]

Mostly North.

 

North has a problem, but he is the one bidding NT without

a stopper, if it does not work ou, he is responsible, he is

also the hero, if it does.

 

Now, if you dont bid NT, you have a problem.

Most likely X is the bid to choose, of course this assumes,

that you can cancel the message, p I have 4 spades, some

here on the forum think, this is not possible, ... I do.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

2H would promise a fit, you may think given the opening

in the minor, the stopper ask is more valuable, but I would

be very vary to try 2H out without discussion.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdonn]

North is getting WAY too much blame. South passing 3NT is absolutely unthinkable.

 

At least in North America these suggestions of ways to ask for a half stopper strike me as a bit silly. 2♥ just shows club support, and 3♥ essentially asks for a stopper. Partner was not obligated to show one over 2♥. On the first round north must risk notrump or passing or else bid 2♦.

 

North had a tough hand with no good bid that he solved in a somewhat reasonable way. South simply showed bad judgment. So I vote 'mostly south'.

[Codo]

Josh, yes most still play the silly way that 2 HEart shows only support.

What a waste of space in my eyes. You can show support by raising, to the 2,3,4 and 5 level. You can bid fitjumps or splinters, so you have about 10 ways to raise partner.

 

But to have all these ways to raise a MINOR and to have no way to ask easily for a stopper and a halfstopper sounds silly.

 

After all, the most common game with a minor fit is still 3 NT.

 

But tradions are always strong in bridge.

[Fluffy]

take out doubles solve north's problem, sadly nobody plays them nowadays.

[EricK]

yes, North made a dubious bid, but that doesn't mean he should get the blame. Swap the ♦K and ♥T for ♥K and ♦T, and North's bid is much less dubious and South's pass is equally bad, and the contract still wrong.

[benlessard]

North should make a neg double. For real players it can be done with 3S.

[the hog]

Mostly North. Agree that Nth should make a sputnik double and for real players this would be a 1S bid! 3NT is the bid of a butcher.

 

South's pass is pretty naf. I think 4C is a standout over 3NT.

[gwnn]

Ron didn't you use to advocate 1♠=4+sp, x=0-3sp? I can find a quote if you deny! :P

[Fluffy]

that's what he said csaba :)

[rbforster]

Tough problem for North - 3N is the values bid, but questionable w/o a stopper and didn't work out. I think upon reflection I'd try 2♦ and follow up by 3♥ over whatever partner bids trying to get to NT.

[helene_t]

Agree with Rob, and hard to argue with post number 333333 anyway.

 

Maybe, instead of assigning the blame, NS should make better agreements about what this 3NT bid shows.

[MFA]

I voted only north because I really hate 3NT. North is giving up the board every time he finds partner with a small singleton or void of hearts. T9xx could be a fair gamble for notrumps, but one cannot jump all the way from 1♥ to 3NT without at least one stopper.

 

I wouldn't have passed 3NT with south's cards either. But that is a much smaller mistake, I think.

[ggwhiz]

I agree with the general consensus but gave North 100% of the blame for starting the debacle, then beaking off about the result.

 

Similar to the negative double with only 3............

 

If I remember correctly, support doubles now used to avoid 4-3 fits were invented by Meckwell to avoid the 3-3 fits they were getting to!

[Apollo81]

I blame both players. I think North has a completely automatic 2♦ bid since he doesn't have a heart stopper. Even if North had one real heart stopper, the clubs might have to be setup in notrump, which would mean 5+ losers. Thus South should probably bid 4♣ over 3NT.

 

Anyway North's mistake was worse -- "don't bid notrump without a stopper when you have another good option"

[hotShot]

If you think "blame", is to strong a word to use for North,

lets just say:

 

North has to take full responsibility for the missing ♥ stopper.

South has 5 loser 2♠, 1♦ and 2♣.

By promising ♥ values, North created the impression that he has less values in ♠, ♦ and ♣. Since low ♦ values can easily be wasted as well opposite A2, 6♣ seems out off reach and even 5♣ might not be save.

South can expect North to have a ♠ honor, making his KJ to a save entry.

South can also expect North to have his share (2+) of the missing 6 cards in ♣ and since 3 of the missing cards are honors North is likely to have one.

This makes 3NT look about as risky as 5♣, perhaps even less risky if partner has 2♥ stopper.

[Phil]

I really hate 3N. It wrong sides the NT immediately. The lack of a 5th diamond is a much smaller sin than the lack of a stopper for 3N.

 

I don't like the pass much either, but 3N still could be the right spot if partner a double diamond stopper and no club card.

 

70 North / 30 South