RichMor Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 <snips>As to your proposed general principle, my first reaction is that on the surface I suspect it is sound but: - I have not tried very hard to come up with an exception- I am not sure of the value of trying to come up with principles to cover situations like this (rather than either making partnership agreements or, if necessary, relying on logic to figure out such things at the table) Fred, -exceptionsSure, principles usually have exceptions. If not, the Master Solvers Club would not exist. :( So principles don't replace judgement. -princple versus agreementMost of what are called 'partnership agreements' focus on specific convertions and treatments. But it should be possible to include some number of principles in a partnership's set of agreements. Something like 'in competetive auctions, doubles through 2♠ are not penalty'. Think that's what Zia and Rosenberg play(ed). Anyway, as a the partnership refines their principles, the distinction between a principle with exceptions and a partnership agreement starts to vanish. As the MSC vote demonstrates, any reasonable agreement is better than none and probably better than relying on good old bridge logic. RichM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 2H should not be thought of as "fourth suit forcing". It is a semi-natural bid that suggests some heart length, spade shortness, and significant extra values. True you might bid 2H as a "least of evils" with a strong 2254 hand with no heart stopper, but that is not very likely. ...... 2H does not "ask for a heart stopper" ......Are you sure that all the experts in the MSC think the same about this?If 2♥ is 4th suit (I would play it like that), then it makes more sense to play 2♠ as non forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 2H should not be thought of as "fourth suit forcing". It is a semi-natural bid that suggests some heart length, spade shortness, and significant extra values. True you might bid 2H as a "least of evils" with a strong 2254 hand with no heart stopper, but that is not very likely. ...... 2H does not "ask for a heart stopper" ......Are you sure that all the experts in the MSC think the same about this?I am not "sure" about any of what follows, but I strongly believe that... 2H meaning what I am suggesting it means, is very much part of "expert standard" here in the USA. I believe the same is true of the concept that "there is no such animal as fourth suit forcing by opener". Of course opener can bid the fourth suit and of course there are auctions where that is forcing, but that does not make it "fourth suit forcing" according to how this term is normally used and understood (at least at the highest levels). I am guessing that if you took a poll of the top 100 players in the USA (no I don't know how you would determine who these people are) that over 90 of them would agree with me about the nature of 2H. I would have guessed 100 before I read about the (shocking) answers to the MSC problem. The comments of those who voted for "2S=non-forcing" in the MSC suggested that most, if not all, agreed with me about what 2H means (even though roughly half disagreed with me about 2S). The 2S=non-forcing people typically either offered a hand like gwnn's or gave the usual excuse "I would like to play this as forcing but without prior discussion blah blah blah" to justify their answers (as opposed to uncertainly as to what 2H meant). This is a relatively easy auction - if opener has extra values he will almost always have a satisfying natural bid to make. There is no need to make 2H artificial (except for that 2254 hand with no heart stopper) and plenty of reason to keep it semi-natural. Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 That 2254 hand you are talking about fred, sounds like a 1NT opening for most people nowadays, Ok, I guess with highly concentrated values you might not want to open 1NT, but then, what hand would you rebid 2NT after 2♦? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 but then, what hand would you rebid 2NT after 2♦?About 17 HCP and either: 1) 1354 with a positional holding in hearts. Even better if your singleton spade is not a small card. or 2) 2254 with a heart stopper. Yes, you could rebid 2NT instead of 2C with some of these hands, but with most such hands and with a strong partner I personally don't like doing that. Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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