How to bid these two hands

[qwery_hi]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sakqxxhaxdqxxxcxx&w=shdc&e=shdc&s=stxxxxhdaxxcakjxx]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

South opens 1♠, and north bids 2NT (Jacoby), and then I bid 4♣, partner bid 4♥, I bid 4♠ and all pass.

 

In the analysis I don't know who did wrong, but we didn't reach 6♠.

 

We're playing in ACBL land GCC, so relay structures after Jacoby 2NT are not allowed.

 

Thanks

[mike777]

why not bid 5d over 4h?

[Fluffy]

I think 3♥ is better than 4♣, more descriptive at least. Having all the trump honnors and nothing else is always a problem, becuase partner's trumps are usually to bad to move forward and we don't have a move to make.

[qwery_hi]

Yes, I should probably bid 5♦ over 4♥, but I was worried about having a void opposite partners cue.

 

Also, I didn't know if 3♥ showing shortness or 4♣ showing a good side 5 card suit was the bid here. I don't know how the auction will go after 3♥ though.

[manudude03]

I would bid 5♣ over 4♥.Should show diamond control as well since partner denied it.

[Mbodell]

It depends on your cue bidding style and your other J2NT style. I think your 4♣ is fine and should promise a suit about as good as you have. Partner is interested and slam and cued ♥. To me that suggests doubt about ♦. Good news! You have the A♦. I think you owe partner another bid other than 4♠. Since your trumps are awful I don't think 4nt keycard is bad here if the A♥ was promised by partners 4♥ bid (since you know that is one of his key cards). You could also make a 5♣ cue (to show the K of clubs and imply some diamond control) or the 5♦ cue that shows the A of diamond, but I'd need to know more about your styles to know what has been shown.

[qwery_hi]

Thanks! We're playing J2NT as showing 15+ with 4+ trumps; and our cue-bidding style is 1st and 2nd round controls, bypassing a cue denies control.

 

Thinking this over, especially with the J2NT showing 15+, I should have bid 5♣over 4♥, implying diamond control and showing ♣AK.

[mike777]

Thanks! We're playing J2NT as showing 15+ with 4+ trumps; and our cue-bidding style is 1st and 2nd round controls, bypassing a cue denies control.

 

Thinking this over, especially with the J2NT showing 15+, I should have bid 5♣over 4♥, implying diamond control and showing ♣AK.

5c is pretty fancy/very very advanced but ok......I just bid simple 5d

[Codo]

I would simply bid KC:

 

I control all side suits.

I have many tricks due to my shortage and my side suit

We have a 10+ card fit.

My partner made a move above my 4 Club bid.

It is easy to understand

 

What else do I need?

 

With KC or even with exclusion KC, I give up on the grand slam. (Not on this hand, here the GS is not a good one, but give opener Qx in clubs and it is a real good one.)

But reaching the small slam should be sufficent for a better score then a lame 4 Spade +2.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

The 4H bid showed slam interest, but also that p was worried about diamonds,

he denied basically a diamond control.

Since you have the diamond control, you can move on.

 

Of course given the void, the heart cue is not good news, because you hear

that p happens to hold wastage in hearts.

 

I think bidding 4S is reasonable, given the wastage in hearts and you being

min. for your bidding, but conservative.

Assuming, you want to bid on, ...,there is no clear bid, another reason, why pass

is not unreasonable.

 

The pass by your p is fine, he does not have the diamond control.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: There is something to be said, for bidding 3H instead of 4C, and that a 4C

bid denies shortage, but 4C as showing 5-5 is not bad.

And of course there other response structures out there.

[Hanoi5]

5♠ over 2NT.

[kenrexford]

J2NT makes life miserable when you do not have an assured plan, which usually occurs when your holding is "impure." An "impure" holding includes features like a fifth trump and slow external values. This hand looks like a nightmare J2NT, IMO.

 

Playing out an alternative option of a 2♦ 2/1 response (my cues preferred; others try their own):

 

1♠-P-2♦-P-

3♣-P-3♠-P-

???

 

Tough. Raising diamonds does little more to help.

 

How about a "better" auction?

 

1♠-P-2♦-P-

3♥(splinter)...

 

I cannot do this, becaue the spade suit is not even remotely good enough. Damn!

 

This is a tough one.

[keylime]

I confess, I like 1♣ as my opener here, but it's a style thing.

[inquiry]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sakqxxhaxdqxxxcxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

South opens 1♠, and north bids 2NT (Jacoby), and then I bid 4♣, partner bid 4♥, I bid 4♠ and all pass.

 

Someone already mentioned that North's pass made "sense" because he lacked a diamond control, and south's 4♠ might should deny one. But north is looking at solid spades, and knows his partners spades are, at best, JACK high. It will be hard to get your partner to cooperate towards slam when holding such poor trump support.

 

If your agreement is that South CAN NOT bid 4♠ when holding a ♦ control, then 4♠ must be passed. However, if you lack this agreement, then North knows the following.

1) South has at least ten black cards.

2) South has an opening hand with at most the spade jack

 

Try to contsturct a hand where south has an opening hand with no diamond control under those conditions. The one death hand is ♠Jxxxx ♥void ♦xxx ♣AKQJx I guess. Any other hand and 5♠ is cold and slam is a good possibility. I would simply not accept a pass of 4♠ as a possible bid if lacking the must continue cue-bidding rule with ♦ control. In my mind, north's pass is thus flawed as clearly NS did not have an agreement that with ♦ control, south must not bid 4♠.

 

I find that when RESPONDER supports opener and RESPONDER has AKQ plus in the supported trump suit, it is often difficult to get opener to cooperate towards slam.

[jdonn]

I completely agree with your general point that the player with very good trumps should push hard because his partner will pull back with bad trumps. However I don't know if you are assuming that if this "rule" was undiscussed (that 4♠ would deny a diamond control) that it doesn't apply. Maybe your partner thought it was standard, and as far as cuebidding style goes then who knows what is standard anyway? I do think south was worth 5♦, but north would certainly be worth pushing on IF he could understand that 4♠ doesn't deny diamond control.

[qwery_hi]

Thank for your comments. They got me thinking -

 

1. North's 4♥ cue was a red herring on this board. With the NS hands, I would want to be in slam even if I remove the ace of hearts from the N hand.

Without the ♥A in N's hand, slam is still better than 50% I think. I have no idea how to reach it though.

 

2. There are lot of gaps in how my partnership uses cue bids. I need to sit down with my partner and work out a set of basic rules of cue bidding.

[skjaeran]

Thanks! We're playing J2NT as showing 15+ with 4+ trumps; and our cue-bidding style is 1st and 2nd round controls, bypassing a cue denies control.

 

Thinking this over, especially with the J2NT showing 15+, I should have bid 5♣over 4♥, implying diamond control and showing ♣AK.

5c is pretty fancy/very very advanced but ok......I just bid simple 5d

Huh?

 

5♣ is pretty elementary over here. Italian style cuebidding is standard, though, so that's what people learn as soon as they learn cuebidding.

[awm]

We're playing in ACBL land GCC, so relay structures after Jacoby 2NT are not allowed.

Not true, by the way.

 

ACBL has a ban against relay systems but these have to start prior to opener's rebid. The jacoby 2NT bid itself is not a relay: it is not the cheapest call, it gives a lot of information about responder's hand, it does not force opener to make any particular bid.

 

The fact that relays may start after opener's rebid is fine; anything is allowed on the general chart subsequent to opener's rebid.

[qwery_hi]

We're playing in ACBL land GCC, so relay structures after Jacoby 2NT are not allowed.

Not true, by the way.

 

ACBL has a ban against relay systems but these have to start prior to opener's rebid. The jacoby 2NT bid itself is not a relay: it is not the cheapest call, it gives a lot of information about responder's hand, it does not force opener to make any particular bid.

 

The fact that relays may start after opener's rebid is fine; anything is allowed on the general chart subsequent to opener's rebid.

Thanks for clearing this up. So the way I understand it is that responders first bid cannot be a relay, anything else is ok.

[Jboling]

I think 3♥ is better than 4♣, more descriptive at least. Having all the trump honnors and nothing else is always a problem, becuase partner's trumps are usually to bad to move forward and we don't have a move to make.

I'm a bit surprised that few agreed with Fluffy on this one. Doesn't 3♥ tell that heart honors should be downgraded and other honors are probably valuable, while 4♣ tells that club honors are superb and red honors should be downgraded? In this case we have a club suit that works well with most club holdings, so why emphasize the club suit? Especially if 2NT implies a balanced hand. Of course, for a grand slam we would prefer if responder had the club queen, but shouldn't the focus initially be on the small slam? And we might get a chance to ask for the club queen later, even if we start with 3♥.

 

After 3♥, responder sees that he has 11 points outside hearts (although ♠Q probably is wasted), and the heart ace which still is a trick, so he should be mildly slam interested. Without special agreements I would try to express that with a 3♠ bid. Opener could then cuebid clubs in hope of a diamond cue from responder, when he can bid 4♥ to show his void. In this case responder will bid 4♥ (showing the ace, the king is uninteresting against a shortness), which will not excite opener. Maybe he still has enough for 5♠ or 4NT (assuming it is RKCB)? Even if responder has Kxxx-AKxx-QJ-xxx you have some chances for 12 tricks, and with that hand responder should have bid 4♠ over 3♥, so he has something better than that. So 4NT RKCB it is, and over the 3 keycard response you have to choose between asking for the trump queen, or trying the more imaginative 6♣. Opener could have asked after the club king with the trump queen ask (or 5NT), so this has to be something else. After 2NT Jacoby you probably do not suggest another trump suit, so it must be a grand slam trial with the focus on the club suit. Responder will wonder why opener did not ask for his spade queen, but it can be due to a six card opening suit, or that he felt lucky with the nine card trump suit (the latter is true in this case). Now how should responder react with a doubleton? The queen would obviously have been better, so 7♠ (or 7♣) probably shows her majesty. Maybe a doubleton is enough for ... 6♦, showing that queen (we have already denied the king). 6♥ would have shown the heart king. The Queen of diamonds is (almost) worthless for a grand, so 6♠ is the conclusion of that story. The king of hearts and the doubleton club on the other hand is enough for a grand, well at least when we already have decided that spades is going to be divided 2-2.