mike777 Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 I am confused. In an ACBL tourney I am asked by the opp to explain a bid. I tell them no alert standard double. Dir. says tell them what your bid means, I say standard double, no alert..... 1H=P=2D=(2S)X This is an honest question what am I suppose to say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elianna Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 You could be more specific as to what you mean by "standard". I'm assuming you mean takeout, so you could have said that. Or to be more even more specific, you could say "short spades, takeout" I think that the thing is, it's not clear if standard means takeout (and therefore short spades), penalty (so you have spades) or support (says nothing about spades). And they were asking for clarification between the three. I hope you see how "standard" could still cover the penalty or takeout options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 Agree with Elianna - there is not really anything standard in bridge, so saying "standard" doesn't disclose - instead simply describe the bid without using the word standard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted January 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 ok what I hear so far is my x is not standard.....it can mean takeout or penalty or other I must admit I had no idea...I thought in ACBL world it is penalty 101% with no alert. It seems that I must tell opp what my standard bridge bid means exactly....in this case penalty...not takeout not other....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 It seems that I must tell opp what my standard bridge bid means exactly....in this case penalty...not takeout not other....... Yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 "Standard" is not a very useful adjective to describe any call. Why not just say what it means? What if the opponents are used to a different "standard"? Maybe they come from a different country or maybe they are beginners and have not learned "standard". What difference does it make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 I really hate hate hate it, when someone explains a bid as standard. I do not even know whether there is a world wide standard nor what this standard may be. When you play in an ACBL event, the standards may be easier to find, but still: When someone is 101 % sure that this double is penalty, why did he not say: penalty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 Its not very hard ... they ask... you answer. Try your best to be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 When the opponents ask the meaning of your call (online - your partner's offline) you are obligated to give a full and complete (as best you can) explanation of its meaning. Naming a convention, or calling it "standard", does not do that, and is unfair to opponents. As Wayne says, try your best to be helpful. Most doubles are not alertable in the acbl anyway - which means you can't rely on the lack of an alert to tell you what it means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tola18 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Its not very hard ... they ask... you answer. Try your best to be helpful. Yeah. And by giving a de facto nonsense answer you are making a de facto psych as you probably are turning them off balance. Like boxers usually try to do immediately before the fight starts... I understand you didnt mean that, but this was probably the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 It's like asking what kind of discards opps play and the hear that they play "natural" discards. I have even heard about "natural" leads. No idea what it means. On the other hand, it is quite possible that you have no specific agreement about this dbl and then you can say "no agreement". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Its not very hard ... they ask... you answer. Try your best to be helpful. Yeah. And by giving a de facto nonsense answer you are making a de facto psych as you probably are turning them off balance. Like boxers usually try to do immediately before the fight starts... I understand you didnt mean that, but this was probably the result. I have no idea what you are talking about. How would I be "turning them off balance" by answering their question. The procedure is as simple as answering an opponent's questions as clearly as possible. The ACBL alert procedures put it succintly with "Bridge is not a game of secret messages". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Hi, similar useles are explanations involving the word "natural" as description, and just telling the name. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Its not very hard ... they ask... you answer. Try your best to be helpful. Yeah. And by giving a de facto nonsense answer you are making a de facto psych as you probably are turning them off balance. Like boxers usually try to do immediately before the fight starts... I understand you didnt mean that, but this was probably the result. I have no idea what you are talking about. How would I be "turning them off balance" by answering their question. I think he was referring to the OP, who repeatedly gave the same useless answer. An answer like "standard" suggests that the opponent doesn't know how to play and the question was foolish. The implied insult to their intelligence can certainly unnerve someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tola18 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I have no idea what you are talking about. How would I be "turning them off balance" by answering their question. The procedure is as simple as answering an opponent's questions as clearly as possible. The ACBL alert procedures put it succintly with "Bridge is not a game of secret messages". Come an. All the others said that answer "standard" was more or less meaningsless.Thus it wasnt clear or helpful. And repeated - I say seemed clearly provoking. Although as I already said, I understand here wasnt no purpose to be provoking. Only thoughless. Ps. Cascade, I see you have perhaps lost "the thread here"? Easy, Im not wandering off although my english isnt native, we are talking whole time about the question in this thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vang Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 ok what I hear so far is my x is not standard.....it can mean takeout or penalty or other I must admit I had no idea...I thought in ACBL world it is penalty 101% with no alert. It seems that I must tell opp what my standard bridge bid means exactly....in this case penalty...not takeout not other.......if your double is penalty (by agreement), why not just answer "PENALTY" and avoid all those gimmicks on what is standard and what not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I have no idea what you are talking about. How would I be "turning them off balance" by answering their question. The procedure is as simple as answering an opponent's questions as clearly as possible. The ACBL alert procedures put it succintly with "Bridge is not a game of secret messages". Come an. All the others said that answer "standard" was more or less meaningsless.Thus it wasnt clear or helpful. And repeated - I say seemed clearly provoking. Although as I already said, I understand here wasnt no purpose to be provoking. Only thoughless. I think the reason Cascade was confused by your response is because he wasn't condoning the meaningless answers. I think he was agreeing with everyone else when he said "Try your best to be helpful." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I have no idea what you are talking about. How would I be "turning them off balance" by answering their question. The procedure is as simple as answering an opponent's questions as clearly as possible. The ACBL alert procedures put it succintly with "Bridge is not a game of secret messages". Come an. All the others said that answer "standard" was more or less meaningsless.Thus it wasnt clear or helpful. And repeated - I say seemed clearly provoking. Although as I already said, I understand here wasnt no purpose to be provoking. Only thoughless. I think the reason Cascade was confused by your response is because he wasn't condoning the meaningless answers. I think he was agreeing with everyone else when he said "Try your best to be helpful." Indeed. Online (or possibly it is a bridge cultural thing in some parts of the world, particularly in ACBL BBO tournaments) there seem to be a significant minority who think that because they play what they think is more or less standard then there is no need to explain their bids when asked. That view is wrong. I am not sure if this is an "online" thing or a cultural thing in some jurisdictions. Certainly when issues like this occur face to face in my experience they are usually simpler to sort out than the lack of response that can occur online. The game will be much more pleasant if when asked a simple question you give a simple descriptive answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Online (or possibly it is a bridge cultural thing in some parts of the world, particularly in ACBL BBO tournaments) there seem to be a significant minority who think that because they play what they think is more or less standard then there is no need to explain their bids when asked. This is very common in the Netherlands, too. Probably everywhere. The alert procedure says you are not supposed to teach the opponents general bridge knowledge. I am sure experts know where to draw the line. But mere mortals find it difficult to distinguish between - general bridge knowledge- what happens to be standard in our coffeehouse but may be non-standard elsewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babalu1997 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I really hate hate hate it, when someone explains a bid as standard. I do not even know whether there is a world wide standard nor what this standard may be. When you play in an ACBL event, the standards may be easier to find, but still: When someone is 101 % sure that this double is penalty, why did he not say: penalty? My partner says that there is only one standard: The Standard Deviation But the best explanation of a bid is: CUEBID!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 But the best explanation of a bid is: CUEBID!!! Yes, or what Harald once came up with: a non-fit non-jump :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Explaining a bid as "takeout" or "penalty" is not teaching them general bridge knowledge. Explaining what "takeout" or "penalty" means would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadie3 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Explaining what the bid means is the proper way to respond. I was shaking my head for 5 minutes the other day when someone asked me after the hand where my one key was. I had bid 5D in response to a 4NT Ace ask and typed in 0,3 in the alert box. The op insisted I was playing 0314 when it was clear I was explaining what my bid meant. He never did figure it out. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehhh Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 It appears to me that there is a need for a remedial course in the Principles of Full Disclosure 101. Cascade and blackshoe seem to be the only ones who are on track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elianna Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 It appears to me that there is a need for a remedial course in the Principles of Full Disclosure 101. Cascade and blackshoe seem to be the only ones who are on track. Or a remedial course on reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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