Is there a smart way to bid this?

[jillybean]

Dealer: North Vul: All Scoring: IMP ♠ AJ64 ♥ K5 ♦ AJ3 ♣ Q942

 

West North East South

 

 -     1♥    Pass  ?

 

 

 

Playing 2/1, what is your first bid?

[Cascade]

1♠ looks normal.

[the hog]

1S for me. I know that there will be some votes for 2C to "set up the game force". This has been discussed a lot on these forums however I do not find the logic convincing.

[jillybean]

OK, I'll cut to the chase..

 

1♥:1♠

3♥:?

[the hog]

4D cue.

[mike777]

4D cue.

ditto

 

the huge...huge issue is what is 4d?....I assume responder had "DOUBT"

[jdonn]

I do recommend 2♣. Sure 1♠ can lead to simpler auctions when it goes 1♥ 1♠ 1NT 3NT, or 1♥ 1♠ 2♥ 4♥, but you would easily find those same contracts if you responded 2♣ as well. 2♣ saves space on hands that require investigation like this one, because by establishing the game force early you have no need later for either jumping or bidding 4th suit forcing.

 

I find it interesting the Hog does not find this logic convincing when this hand is a perfect example of why 2♣ works better.

1♥ 1♠

3♥ 4♦

vs

1♥ 2♣

2♥ 2NT

3♥ 3♠

The second auction gives a better representation of responder's strength, nature (balanced with honors all around), trump support (doubleton), and controls (spade cuebid). The first auction could be 2 hearts or 3, could have a spade control or not, could be balanced or unbalanced. Auctions are not a race, 2♣ gives you all the time in the world to describe your hand to partner and investigate.

 

They are correct in noting 4♦ on the first auction is a cuebid. There are times you would wish it was natural, but you can't have it both ways and having a way to agree hearts below 4♥ is very important.

[mike777]

regarding another post a partner brought up an issue:

 

 

 

 

1h=2c

(6h and 4s now what?)

[kenrexford]

2♣

[P_Marlowe]

1S.

 

Not sure, this is the smart way, but it is the bid,

which is most likely the bid partner expects, and

which will avoid misunderstandings.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: After 3H, bid 4D.

[vuroth]

regarding another post a partner brought up an issue:

 

 

 

 

1h=2c

(6h and 4s now what?)

I would say 2♥, and let partner bid 2♠.

 

The big thing is probably to be on the same page as partner.

[jillybean]

Dealer: North Vul: All Scoring: IMP ♠ AJ64 ♥ K5 ♦ AJ3 ♣ Q942

 

West North East South

 

 

 -     1♥    Pass  1♠

Pass  3♥    Pass   4♦

I made the 4♦ cue which partner took as ♠'s and ♦'s, a bit of a bump on the road to 6♥.

 

And this auction;

 

1♣:1♥

3♦?

 

Is this a splinter agreeing ♥? since 2♦ is a gf reverse and 4♦ is a bid Jdonn said I'd be happy if I never had to make it :) Seems like a few us have been thinking 4♦ is needed as a splinter here.

[Gerben42]

I agree with JDown here. With 4 cards in ♠ and a GF hand, the auction becomes easier in many situations if you just bid your 4-card minor now. If partner is minimum with 5♥ 4♠, the auction will go:

 

1♥ - 2♣

2♥ (1) - 2♠ (2)

4♠

 

(1) Too weak to bid 2♠

(2) Does not require an unbalanced hand in this style

[fred]

Lots of strong players bid 2C with these hands, but many bid 1S as well.

 

I am in the 1S camp (but I admit I thought it was clear to bid 2C on the hand that was posted the other day with xxxx of spades and AKQJ of clubs).

 

Not sure I can offer a good explanation of why other than saying that I try to avoid making 2/1s on 4-card suits and, aside from that, I don't like the idea of bidding 2C then 2S with a balanced hand (or the notion of rebidding 2NT instead of 2S).

 

Really I don't think it is that big a deal either way what you do with these hands. As long as you and your partner agree, you will be in reasonable shape.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[whereagles]

1♥ 1♠

3♥ 4NT

 

Seems the practical solution, despite the wide open clubs.

[TimG]

And this auction;

 

1♣:1♥

3♦?

 

Is this a splinter agreeing ♥?

Yes, this is a splinter for the very reason you suggest: 2♦ would be forcing, one more than that is a splinter.

[the hog]

Josh and other 2C bidders, for me the auction

1H 2C

2H 2S shows shape - at least 5C and 4S. Certainly not a 4-4 shape.

[jdonn]

Josh and other 2C bidders, for me the auction

1H 2C

2H 2S  shows shape - at least 5C and 4S. Certainly not a 4-4 shape.

I agree.

 

1♥ 2♣

2♥ 2NT

3♥ 3♠

I would not bid it the way Gerben suggested. However, it's certainly true that if you are going to bid 2♣ on hands like this, you will want to discuss how to find your 4-4 spade fits. There are a number of ways to make sure you don't miss them, most of which aren't particularly complicated.

 

As I've said before, one of the main advantages of 1♠ is simplicity on game hands with a heart or spade fit or that are both balanced and belong in 3NT. Responding 2♣ tends to add a round or two to the auction when that is the case, so it's perhaps not as easy of a way to play (and certainly not as intuitive, I would also admit.)

[xcurt]

Add a way to show a balanced game force over 1M to your system (eg by playing 2♣ as an artificial game force which might have natural clubs).*

 

Playing typical North American 2/1-partnership methods without Flannery I would bid 1♠. If I bid 1♠ then partner bids 1NT I could bid 2♦ artificial game forcing and then NT, if partner bids 2♣ I can bid 2♦ artificial game forcing and then support clubs (or just take over if partner shows a good 6-4 with 2♥ next), and if partner bids 2♦ I could bid 3♣ artificial game forcing and then unless partner shows a good 6-4 or 5-5 I could content myself with 3NT. That seems OK to me, and it burns less space than auctions beginning 1♥-2♣; 2NT-?.

 

If we're playing Flannery (or if partner raises 1♠ aggressively on 3 trumps) then 1♠ is more likely to lead to 1♥-1♠-2♠ at which point I would wish I had bid 2♣.

 

* OK I didn't say that in the BI forum. I agree with the posters in the Aus/Nz thread a few days back about working on judgement first and not loading up on system. But it would help on this one.

[keylime]

I bid a spade, because I know where I'm going. I'd make sure that you had a way to make a forcing call after 1H-1S-1NT or things thereof (a natural and forcing 2C fits the bill here) for these reasons:

 

1. We have values in spades, and it allows partner to make a more informed rebid. If we started with a forcing 2C bid, pard may have to rebid 2H on more hands than instead of a lower level 1S response. Imagine a 4-5-x-x that is like, 12-15 points, and trying to find a rebid over 2C.

 

2. I like five card suits for my 2/1's.

 

3. Allowing partner to limit their hand immediately is a key to accurate slam bidding. If partner has a 1NT rebid, then you're happy to raise to 3, table the dummy, get coffee and smile knowing pard should rack 3NT with overtricks. If they jump rebid tho, then you're thinking really big. With a 2C rebid, you lose the ability for pard and you to limit their hands as cheaply as possible.

 

4. Lastly, if pard owns a lot of hearts, it's easier for you to evaluate. 1H-2C-2H doesn't help us understand the nature of the hand as a 1H-1S-2/3H does.

[han]

I'd make sure that you had a way to make a forcing call after 1H-1S-1NT

I would have expected a unanimous vote for 3NT after that start.

[CSGibson]

I'd make sure that you had a way to make a forcing call after 1H-1S-1NT

I would have expected a unanimous vote for 3NT after that start.

Just to clarify: That's a non-forcing 3N, of course :)

[MickyB]

Josh, I like the idea of this but I've played it before.

 

If the auction starts

 

1H:2C

2H:2N

 

do you now bid 3S on any hand with four of them? What would you bid on KQx AKxxxx xx xx?

[jdonn]

Josh, I like the idea of this but I've played it before.

 

If the auction starts

 

1H:2C

2H:2N

 

do you now bid 3S on any hand with four of them? What would you bid on KQx AKxxxx xx xx?

There are lots of ways to find the spade fit.

 

Play responder can rebid 2♠ without promising a balanced hand.

 

Play opener can reverse into spades without showing extras.

 

Play 3♠ on the auction you present as promising 4 (the obvious bid would be 3♥ btw. Even someone who doesn't respond 2♣ on the problem hand would probably use 3♠ there as showing 4-6.)

 

Play something artificial, there are many options.

 

Lose the spade fit when both players are relatively balanced.

 

I think for a partnership that doesn't want to get particularly involved, the second option is the most appealing. It's very simple, and you can catch up on strength later.

[MickyB]

Obviously, there was meant to be a 'not' in my previous post.

 

Unfortunately, the second option isn't viable in my methods. I'll give the others some thought - thanks.