At the Local Club

[blackshoe]

10 points and 6 clubs vs a 10 point nt? Of course everyone is going to bid that. It was a perfectly good ruling.

No it was not.

 

It is improper for a director to comment on the content of a player's hand while the hand is still in play. Period.

 

A good ruling would have been "okay, play on. Call me after the play if you feel you may have been damaged by use of UI". A perfectly good ruling would have been to say that without looking at the player's hand.

[blackshoe]

Peachy: many ACBL TDs seem to regard "reading from the book" as an admission of lack of knowledge of the laws (dare I say incompetence?) Many players regard "reading from the book" as a waste of their precious playing time. The inevitable result is wrong (dare I say incompetent?) rulings.

 

Many club TDs stress "let the players enjoy their game" over the rules - to the extent that they ignore rules violations by some players because to rule against them would lessen their enjoyment - or something like that. The arguments presented for this attitude have never made sense to me.

 

Calling the TD when you know (or at least are pretty sure) that he's going to say "play on" is the right thing to do. The purpose is not to get a score adjustment or penalty against your opponents right then, but to make the TD aware of the problem early, so he does not treat your call after the play as looking for a double shot.

 

Owning or running a club game is a thankless job. As you say, not glamorous. Doesn't pay worth a damn either. Still, where would we be if nobody did it?

[han]

10 points and 6 clubs vs a 10 point nt? Of course everyone is going to bid that.  It was a perfectly good ruling.

What blackshoe said is of course correct (that the director should never say such a thing) but I also disagree with the bridge content of this post. Typically you would require a better hand to come in over a mini-notrump than over a strong notrump.

[bill1157]

10 points and 6 clubs vs a 10 point nt? Of course everyone is going to bid that.  It was a perfectly good ruling.

What blackshoe said is of course correct (that the director should never say such a thing) but I also agree with the bridge content of this post. Typically you would require a better hand to come in over a mini-notrump than over a strong notrump.

You would need a better hand to come over the mini-NT directly, but in balancing seat?

Also, "play on" and walk away would necessitate another trip to the table as soon as the play was done. I can sympathize with the director saying "she had her bid", it didn't cause any harm, even if it wasn't completely proper.

 

Bill

[shintaro]

;)

 

Perhaps you should not complain about those who can be bothered to Direct at their local club; at least they are willing to do it;

 

If you don't agree then perhaps you should volunteer to do it instead.

 

:rolleyes:

[matmat]

10 points and 6 clubs vs a 10 point nt? Of course everyone is going to bid that.  It was a perfectly good ruling.

What blackshoe said is of course correct (that the director should never say such a thing) but I also agree with the bridge content of this post. Typically you would require a better hand to come in over a mini-notrump than over a strong notrump.

You would need a better hand to come over the mini-NT directly, but in balancing seat?

Also, "play on" and walk away would necessitate another trip to the table as soon as the play was done. I can sympathize with the director saying "she had her bid", it didn't cause any harm, even if it wasn't completely proper.

 

Bill

there is no guarantee that the director in question has a reasonable judgment at bridge. The fact that they deem the call "reasonable" carries very little weight.

[bill1157]

10 points and 6 clubs vs a 10 point nt? Of course everyone is going to bid that.  It was a perfectly good ruling.

What blackshoe said is of course correct (that the director should never say such a thing) but I also agree with the bridge content of this post. Typically you would require a better hand to come in over a mini-notrump than over a strong notrump.

You would need a better hand to come over the mini-NT directly, but in balancing seat?

Also, "play on" and walk away would necessitate another trip to the table as soon as the play was done. I can sympathize with the director saying "she had her bid", it didn't cause any harm, even if it wasn't completely proper.

 

Bill

there is no guarantee that the director in question has a reasonable judgment at bridge. The fact that they deem the call "reasonable" carries very little weight.

Ok, but somebody has to make a decision or else you will swamp the comittees.

 

Bill

[blackshoe]

Also, "play on" and walk away would necessitate another trip to the table as soon as the play was done. I can sympathize with the director saying "she had her bid", it didn't cause any harm, even if it wasn't completely proper.

 

Bill

How do you know whether it caused any harm? It certainly gives information to the players at the table. Perhaps it gave useful information to the opponents of the bidder, perhaps it gave her partner a further UI problem. The TD cannot know the effect of making such comments, except that they convey to players information that he should not have given them.

 

As for necessitating another trip to the table, so what? That's the job. And it would only necessitate a trip if the NOS still thought there was a problem.

[babalu1997]

doesn't it almost seem like the directors are poorly chosen, poorly educated on the matters and their "directing" is hardly ever scrutinized?

AMEN

[blackshoe]

Ok, but somebody has to make a decision or else you will swamp the comittees.

Pfui. First, the director will make a decision - at the proper time and in the proper manner, if he's competent. Second, if the TD makes no ruling (i.e., no decision) there is no basis for an appeal, and there will be no impact on any committee. There might be an impact on club management, if the basis of the "appeal" is that the TD is incompetent and should be fired. Of course, in clubs the TD often is the management, so good luck with that.

[jmc]

The real problem to me is not whether many people would bid with 10 points and 6 clubs in 3rd chair after a 10-13 NT. The question is after her partner hesitated and she is red vs white is pass a reasonable alternative. I think it clearly was for this level of player. Her partners break in tempo made the 2c call much more attractive and safe. Maybe Jan M or an expert could argue pass was unreasonable for them. I don't think this player could. Nor, do I believe could most players.

 

The normality of the 3rd seat bid isn't relevent.

[bill1157]

The real problem to me is not whether many people would bid with 10 points and 6 clubs in 3rd chair after a 10-13 NT. The question is after her partner hesitated and she is red vs white is pass a reasonable alternative. I think it clearly was for this level of player. Her partners break in tempo made the 2c call much more attractive and safe. Maybe Jan M or an expert could argue pass was unreasonable for them. I don't think this player could. Nor, do I believe could most players.

 

The normality of the 3rd seat bid isn't relevent.

the standard is what some reasonable players might do, not "you look like an idiot so i won't let you make the obvious bid"...

[blackshoe]

No. The standard is what the peers of the player who had UI might do, absent the UI.

[JoAnneM]

doesn't it almost seem like the directors are poorly chosen, poorly educated on the matters and their "directing" is hardly ever scrutinized?

AMEN

Are you kidding? My co-director and I have been pleading with our two clubs for 4 YEARS for someone else to step into director shoes. At almost every Unit Board meeting we plead for them to sponsor more directors, I have offerred to give director classes, no one signs up, we have even bought the books.

 

But you go right ahead and critcize us volunteers who get paid NOTHING to come out twice a week and put up with the children at the game. At least at our club the directors know the rules and we have trained the players to call us.

 

Oh, BTW, I am on the west coast, in Northern California

[han]

Completely agree with you there JoAnne, and I think complaining about the level of volunteer club directors is cheap and uncalled for.

[mtvesuvius]

It is completely wrong to criticize people who have volunteered to help out, just because they are not doing things perfectly. Granted, this person needs more training before he/she can become a good director, but they need to learn by trial and error. We have several directors at our club in Florida who are new, and learning, just recently they mixed the tickets from 2 different rounds, and I went back through with them and sorted it out. Directors learn from doing these things wrong... Give them a chance.

[matmat]

Are you kidding? My co-director and I have been pleading with our two clubs for 4 YEARS for someone else to step into director shoes. At almost every Unit Board meeting we plead for them to sponsor more directors, I have offerred to give director classes, no one signs up, we have even bought the books.

 

But you go right ahead and critcize us volunteers who get paid NOTHING to come out twice a week and put up with the children at the game. At least at our club the directors know the rules and we have trained the players to call us.

do you maybe think that's the problem? maybe even a nominal fee would encourage people to think direct. Also, if the director is paid, there could be some accountability (no pun intended). Playing a game with a director who would rather not be there and who shows this, you might as well not have a director.

[JoAnneM]

What makes you think we would rather not be there? I think volunteer directors are probably there for the best reasons, they want to help the club. It would just be nice to have more of them.

 

Another pet peeve of mine - It would also be nice if players took the time to learn the basic rules, not so they can make their own rulings at the table, but so they can know when to call the director! Some players get away with "murder" because other players are ignorant.

[blackshoe]

We have a game here, a pretty good sized one actually, which has players from beginner to the best in the area. And pretty much everything in between. The game starts at 1230 in the afternoon. At 12, there's a lesson. Usually it's a bidding or play lesson, but occasionally I can persuade the club owners - usually because one is out of town and the other doesn't want to deal with a lesson - to let me give a talk on the laws, or "when to call the director", or etiquette in those situations, or whatever. These talks are always well received - by the beginners who attend them. The better players (including many who imo aren't really all that much better) don't pay attention, because they don't need lessons - they know it all already. B)