why I hate jumps in a minor

[jillybean]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=saqtxxhaxxdxxckjx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

opps silent

1♦:1♠

3♦:?[/hv]

[kfay]

I really don't think you have to worry about bidding 3NT just yet. We've got enough strength that the opps don't scare me just yet. Good thing it's IMPs! :)

 

Slam in diamonds or spades is certainly still on the table. I'm just going to temporize with 3♥ and see what happens.

[jillybean]

Hehe; I bid 3♥ and pard responded 5♥ :) (I think this shows support and a void), I'll post the full hand in a minute

[matmat]

Hehe; I bid 3♥ and pard responded 5♥ :) (I think this shows support and a void), I'll post the full hand in a minute

sounds to me like partner failed to reverse and jumped in diamonds instead.

[jillybean]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sk73hkj83dakj862c&s=saqt85ha75d74ckj7]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

 

 

I think the auction could have started;

 

1♦:1♠

2♥:2♠

3♠:?4♣/4♥

[rogerclee]

3♦ is a very poor choice, it lies about a side 4-card major and, more importantly, you will miss a 5-3 spade fit when partner is too weak to bid again. It is not hard to be playing 3♦ on a hand where we are cold for 4 of either major this way. 2♥ is a much better bid because it announces strength while keeping all strains in play; we can wait one round to rebid the diamonds.

 

Starting with 2♥ makes it very easy to get to 6♠.

[Walddk]

I agree with Roger and I like to add that 6♠ is very good despite the wasted ♣KJ. In an ideal world responder has the two red queens instead, and we all want to be in 7.

 

15 hcp is a minimum for a reverse (some prefer 16 or 17+), but this hand is worth an upgrade for two reasons:

 

- 1. Very strong diamonds.

- 2. Kxx in responder's suit.

 

Roland

[jillybean]

Okay, here's how I see the auction, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

After 1♦:1♠ 3♦ (showing 16-18 6+♦'s) my partner can't have 4♥'s

so 1♦:1♠ 3♦:3♥ is like a 4sf - we have game+ I dont know where, tell me more about your hand.

Or as the experts say, "temporize with 3♥"

 

I could have 4♥'s but I'll be 54xx 55xx 64xx

 

 

Now opener should (in order of preference)

1. Show 3 card ♠ support

2. Bid nt

3. Rebid ♦'s

 

I cant recall a successful auction where the bidding has started off 1m:1M 3m We either get too high, 1m/3m bidder didnt have their bid or like here, we end up in the wrong suit.

[fred]

Okay, here's how I see the auction, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

After 1♦:1♠ 3♦ (showing 16-18 6+♦'s) my partner can't have 4♥'s

so 1♦:1♠ 3♦:3♥ is like a 4sf - we have game+ I dont know where, tell me more about your hand.

Or as the experts say, "temporize with 3♥"

 

 

Now opener should (in order of preference)

1. Show 3 card ♠ support

2. Bid nt

3. Rebid ♦'s

 

I cant recall a successful auction where the bidding has started off 1m:1M 3m  We either get too high, 1m/3m bidder didnt have their bid or like here, we end up in the wrong suit.

Hi Jilly,

 

I agree completely with the others who said 3D was a poor bid with partner's actual hand, but given that he/she did bid 3D, I don't like your 3H bid much either (sorry!).

 

IMO as soon as your partner bids 3D, you should be thinking about 6D. You should give partner this message as quickly and as clearly as possible by bidding 4D (forcing) yourself.

 

Your choice of 3H might work well if partner's next call is 3NT - you can then bid 4D and you should be OK. But if partner bids 3S over 3D (something he can do with Kx of spades if he is stuck, by the way) you are not exactly in a great position and if partner bids 4D over 3H things become quite awkward.

 

This problem would be a lot harder at matchpoints where concern about playing in spades or notrump would be important. At IMPs, given that 5D is very likely to be safe, there is not much to lose (and a lot to gain) by letting your partner know your intentions as soon as possible.

 

Bids like 3H tend to result in cloudy auctions. There is no need to enter the clouds on this one - partner will appreciate you making a bid that will keep the skies clear for him/her :P

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[P_Marlowe]

4D.

 

Natural and forcing.

 

You found a fit, you know you will at least play 6,

be happy that partner did find a 3D bid.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Dealer: North Vul: NS Scoring: IMP ♠ K73 ♥ KJ83 ♦ AKJ862 ♣ [space] ♠ AQT85 ♥ A75 ♦ 74 ♣ KJ7  

 

 

 

I think the auction could have started;

 

1♦:1♠

2♥:2♠

3♠:?4♣/4♥

2S is dangerous.

 

Ok, we had this discussion before, but keep in mind, that

a tiny fraction of the bridge playing population treats 2S as

weak and passable.

Of course if you want to to win the post mortem with the

words that in NA expert practice is too treat 2S as one round

force and that everybody knowes and plays those treatments,

than go ahead.

 

To keep it simple and to avoid a misunderstanding I would

go via FSF, I would go with 3C (FSF), of course those who

treat 2S as forcing, will treat 3C as natural, take your pick,

at least we have KJx in clubs, so it is natural, sort of.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdonn]

So your post says "a few people don't know the meaning of the best bid, so make a different and less correct bid that even more people don't know the meaning of." Right?

 

I think we should just stick with the proper bids, and if partner doesn't know what it means we can clear it up and everyone will learn something.

[P_Marlowe]

So your post says "a few people don't know the meaning of the best bid, so make a different and less correct bid that even more people don't know the meaning of." Right?

 

I think we should just stick with the proper bids, and if partner doesn't know what it means we can clear it up and everyone will learn something.

Hopefully you have detected the sarcasm, as I wrote "a tiny

fraction".

 

You can of course read my post the way you did, similar I

could read your post, that the prober way of bidding is the

way experts from NA bid.

I am pretty sure (or at least I hope) that you did not mean this.

My principal suggestion is, that one should try to make the bid,

which has the lowest probabylity for a mess up, to give the

partnership the best chance to win the board during the time

it counts, when it is played.

I dont know, if the average player in NA, if he would treat 2S as

forcing in this sequence, I doubt it, but since I was never in the US,

it is a pure guess.

 

And of course I am willing to discuss after the board was finished,

if it makes sense to adopt specific agreements, which may have

lead to a different bid, ... as long as I have plans to play longer with

the guy.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[H_KARLUK]

I give 4 ♦.

 

It is "Minorwood" in our agreement with regular partner. Game seems in bag and time to ask slam possibility.

 

I cannot vote to either 3 ♥ or 3 NT with such a collection. It is not moderate anymore after his jump rebid denying 4 cards M reverse. To me responder's hand upgraded.

[karlson]

Funny. No one for a natural 4N with responder's hand over 3d?

[cherdano]

Funny. No one for a natural 4N with responder's hand over 3d?

Not me. Of course, 6NT will be in the picture but I should tell partner my hand is suit-y.

[jdonn]

Yeah, 4NT isn't an awful bid, but I don't think it accurately represents the nature of our hand. Axx of hearts and no clear path to 10/12 fast tricks make it pretty risky.

[jillybean]

Okay, here's how I see the auction, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

After 1♦:1♠ 3♦ (showing 16-18 6+♦'s) my partner can't have 4♥'s

so 1♦:1♠ 3♦:3♥ is like a 4sf - we have game+ I dont know where, tell me more about your hand.

Or as the experts say, "temporize with 3♥"

 

 

Now opener should (in order of preference)

1. Show 3 card ♠ support

2. Bid nt

3. Rebid ♦'s

 

I cant recall a successful auction where the bidding has started off 1m:1M 3m  We either get too high, 1m/3m bidder didnt have their bid or like here, we end up in the wrong suit.

Hi Jilly,

 

I agree completely with the others who said 3D was a poor bid with partner's actual hand, but given that he/she did bid 3D, I don't like your 3H bid much either (sorry!).

 

IMO as soon as your partner bids 3D, you should be thinking about 6D. You should give partner this message as quickly and as clearly as possible by bidding 4D (forcing) yourself.

 

Your choice of 3H might work well if partner's next call is 3NT - you can then bid 4D and you should be OK. But if partner bids 3S over 3D (something he can do with Kx of spades if he is stuck, by the way) you are not exactly in a great position and if partner bids 4D over 3H things become quite awkward.

 

This problem would be a lot harder at matchpoints where concern about playing in spades or notrump would be important. At IMPs, given that 5D is very likely to be safe, there is not much to lose (and a lot to gain) by letting your partner know your intentions as soon as possible.

 

Bids like 3H tend to result in cloudy auctions. There is no need to enter the clouds on this one - partner will appreciate you making a bid that will keep the skies clear for him/her :D

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Thanks Fred.

 

When my partner bid 3♦ I was headed to slam, (♦, ♠, nt?) and I didn’t see any reason to immediately give up on a ♠ fit. I must admit, I don’t pay attention to the scoring and know its something I should do, like learning to count to 13.

 

I realise 3♥ can cloud the auction, if my hand was 5314 with the same auction (1♦:1♠ 3♦:?) would you bid 4♣ and thus never need to temporize with 3♥?

 

As you said, change the scoring to MP and the problem is a lot harder. How do you bid it now?

[fred]

I realise 3♥ can cloud the auction, if my hand was 5314 with the same auction (1♦:1♠  3♦:?)  would you bid 4♣ and thus never need to temporize with 3♥?

I doubt I would bid 4C. To me 4C means "maybe we belong in clubs" so I would normally have a 5-card suit for that bid. Sure partner could still choose to jump to 3D despite holding a 4-card club suit, but I don't think it is practical to try to cater to this unlikely possibility (so don't bid 4 clubs with a 4-card suit even though it is possible that a 4-4 fit exists).

 

Sorry if this is confusing, but 3H does not mean "maybe we belong in hearts", because 3H is below 3NT which is the most likely game contract when the bidding starts this way. As such, it is more useful that the first message of 3H to be "I have some strength in hearts". While it is true that you would also tend to bid 3H if you had 5-5 in the majors (possibly bidding 4H next to deliver this message), partner should not play you for that when you bid 3H. And he definitely should not play you to be looking for a 4-4 heart fit when you bid 3H (ie 3H does not promise a 4-card suit). While it is OK to sometimes rebid 3D with a side 4-card club suit (as I said in the first paragraph), rebidding 3D with a side 4-card heart suit is another story. In general that is something you should avoid doing (as other posters have pointed out).

 

There really aren't any great choices with the same hand and 5314 distribution. I supposed I could live with bidding 3H or 3S, but perhaps 3NT is the best of a bad lot. The problem with 3H or 3S is, if partner bids 4D, you are pretty much endplayed into bidding 5D. That might be fine, but I think I would rather be in 3NT. Sure you could bid 4NT (instead of 5D) and hope that partner reads your call as "natural and non-forcing". Probably that is what 4NT should mean, but if partner is a beginner or an intermediate it is all but certain that the bid will be taken as Blackwood. Even if partner is an expert he might be confused by this sequence. But even if partner passes this test and allows you to play in 4NT when the bidding goes this way, the patient might still die: sometimes only 9 tricks with be available.

 

I think 4NT over 3D is an overbid when you have the 5314 hand, but no doubt that is partly a matter of what I expect from partner for 3D. Even if you don't think it is an overbid, it is not exactly a good bid (because it ignores your nice spade suit and because Axx is not an attractive holding in hearts for bidding 4NT).

 

By the way, the cloudier your hand, the more there is to be said for making a cloudy bid. That's why I think that 3H has more going for it when you are 5314 than it does when you are 5323. With 5314 you have a lot more uncertaintly about where you are going than you do with 5323 (where you know that heading for diamonds will usually be fine).

 

I realise 3♥ can cloud the auction, if my hand was 5314 with the same auction (1♦:1♠  3♦:?)  would you bid 4♣ and thus never need to temporize with 3♥?

 

That's a tough one too. Matchpoints introduces some clouds into the equation so the cloudy 3H now has more going for it. Still, unless the field is super-strong (and maybe even then) I think I would content myself with 4D. Experience suggests that bidding and making any slam tends to be worth an above average matchpoint score even if a higher scoring slam might be making.

 

At matchpoints, once you do bid 4D, I don't think you should be willing to play in 5D - there is a lot to be said for forcing to slam even if partner doesn't cooperate (because 3NT is probably making with overtricks and the field loves to play in 3NT so 5D making exactly won't be worth much more than 6D going down). If you buy that then there is something to be said for bidding 6D directly over 3D at matchpoints but:

 

- it is possible that 7D is a good and biddable contract

- it is possible that you will be able to back into a good 6S or 6NT after bidding 4D

 

Neither of these possibilities are especially likely and I am not sure I would concern myself with either of them unless I was playing in a regular partnership with an expert.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[jillybean]

Thanks again. No more questions for a while, I'll need a week or so to digest this. :D

[fred]

Thanks again. No more questions for a while, I'll need a week or so to digest this.  :)

I woudn't recommend spending a great deal of time thinking about matchpoint-specific strategy at this point in your bridge studies, Jilly.

 

Matchpoints is a much harder game than IMPs and very few people (even experts) are good at it. In general you will do fine in almost all matchpoint fields if you "just play good bridge" :)

 

At this point in time there are more important things for you to learn.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[jillybean]

At this point in time there are more important things for you to learn.

Heh! You cant leave it at that :)

[jdonn]

At this point in time there are more important things for you to learn.

Heh! You cant leave it at that :)

I think he means the stuff he responded to your first statement that he quoted is more appropriate for you to pay attention to right now than the stuff he responded to your second statement that he quoted.

[fred]

At this point in time there are more important things for you to learn.

Heh! You cant leave it at that ;)

I think you are already doing a good job of trying to learn the most important things about bidding, such as:

 

1) how various bids should be interpretted

2) how to choose between various bids (ie judgment)

3) considering "what will happen next?" and coming up with a plan

4) becoming better at the thinking process involved in 1) and 2), and 3)

 

You ask good questions, you listen to the answers, and as far as I can tell you are getting better and better at this. Another thing you have going for you is that you do not seem to be obsessed with learning new conventions or under the impression that learning new conventions is all you need in order to become good at bidding. That is good. Many players at your level fall into this trap (or get pushed into this trap by their teachers) and never escape from it.

 

Keep doing what you are already doing and you will keep improving ;)

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[jillybean]

Here's another bid 3, making 6 :)

 

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sxxxxhkqxxxdxxcqx&s=sxhaxxdakqt9xcaxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♦:1♥

3♦:ap[/hv]