How would you invite to game?

[Hanoi5]

All red, you open 1♠ 4th seat:

 

♠QJ9xx

♥KQJx

♦Axx

♣x

 

Your partner raises to 2♠ and opponents remain silent. Do you invite or get to game or pass? How would you like to invite?

[Fluffy]

I am not a big fan of bidding 3 card suits on this sequence, but this hand must be the exception: 3♦.

[655321]

If we are talking random pickup partnerships, 3♦ is probably as good as anything.

 

If we are talking regular partnerships, I very much prefer short suit trials, and with that agreement this hand is an easy 3♣ bid. Personally, I don't like any sort of long suit trials, so I also don't play one of these 'either/or' methods. Just short suit trials.

[kenrexford]

This is tough.

 

Normally, the default invite for me woud be either a 2NT general game try or a new suit call, which would be natural and possibly slammish.

 

The upside to a 2NT call is that it leaves room for partner to reciprocate with a 3♣ try back (which I reject) or a 3♦ try back, or possibly even 3♥.

 

The 3♦ option has the merit of focusing partner on the need for diamond help, but then he might not like a stiff there. Plus, I cannot conceive of getting to a possible ideal 4♥ contract.

 

A 3♥ option focuses my pattern well but preempts partner's ability to distinguish minor features.

 

I like 2NT. I hope partner is awake enough to keep hearts in focus if he has four of them.

[han]

I would pass.

 

I expect partner to bid drury with a good 9-count and with all 10-counts. That doesn't mean game can't make but passing seems to be with the odds.

[TylerE]

What Han said. We really expecting 3 cover cards from partner?

[lilboyman]

Game looks like a long shot here. You are missing 4 primary controls in 3 suits and have 2 secondary losers in Diamonds. It will require partner to have a near perfect hand to make game. Pass seems in order.

[jdonn]

Wow seems like an easy pass. You have to give up on the rare perfect fit or you will turn a plus into a minus way too often.

[kenrexford]

Yeah, forgot to ask.

 

1. Is Drury on?

2. Are constructive raises on?

[peachy]

I would not even consider inviting, let alone bidding four.

[P_Marlowe]

Methods?

 

Bidding game is not an option, either pass

or invite.

 

I would go with 3H, showing values.

 

I have gone down before, not the right attidute

to play MP.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[neilkaz]

PD didn't use Drury and only bid 2♠ so I am passing as game seems too against the odds.

[Winstonm]

Short suit game try for me. This is an exclusion bid and tells partner than any cards he holds outside the short suit are valuable. All of a sudden, Kxx, Kxxx, xx, xxxx looks to be a pretty good hand.

 

Experience has shown that SS game tries are really accurate but they don't come up as much. 2-way game tries help, allowing both a short suit and another type of try.

 

Edit: I believe the others who have responded are undervalueing this hand quite a bit - with the fit found I would value this hand more like 15+ to 16. If partner has 4 spades, even more.

 

Kxxx, xx, QJx, xxxx is pretty bad but even that offers a play. It is true that you could try and get overboard at 3, but such is life.

 

Edit again:

 

BTW, over 3C SSGT I would expect partner to bid 3H with Kxx, Axxxx, xx, xxx

[han]

Of course we can't both have the king of spades and even if partner has the wonderful Kxx Axxx xx xxxx game has no play, at least double dummy. Make the hand slightly less perfect and game will be bad even against poor opponents. And then sometimes partner doesn't have the optimal club holding and you will be going down in 3S.

 

I still think trying for game is too much.

[Winstonm]

Of course we can't both have the king of spades....

 

♠QJ9xx

♥KQJx

♦Axx

♣x

 

You start drinking again? :lol:

 

and even if partner has the wonderful Kxx Axxx xx xxxx game has no play, at least double dummy.

 

 

4H has no play?

[kenrexford]

For all of those arguing that Drury solves this problem -- who said Drury was being used here???

[mtvesuvius]

How is it possible to invite when partner has shown a limited 7-9 HCP raise?? This is a clear pass. Partner could have bid Drury.

[Winstonm]

How is it possible to invite when partner has shown a limited 7-9 HCP raise?? This is a clear pass. Partner could have bid Drury.

Have you never reached a 20-22 point game?

 

It doesn't have to be that much of a hand, even: Axxx, xx, QJx, xxxx - I would want to play 4S wouldn't you?

[jdonn]

How is it possible to invite when partner has shown a limited 7-9 HCP raise?? This is a clear pass. Partner could have bid Drury.

Have you never reached a 20-22 point game?

 

It doesn't have to be that much of a hand, even: Axxx, xx, QJx, xxxx - I would want to play 4S wouldn't you?

And of course if he has Axxx xx xxx QJxx we are going down half the time in 3, and that's with Axxx of trumps and a doubleton and the QJ in the same suit! And what if he has xxx xxx Jxx KQJx? You could go down in 1! And is partner not supposed to bid game opposite a short suit try in clubs with Kxxx x Jxxx Axxx? :(

[jdonn]

For all of those arguing that Drury solves this problem -- who said Drury was being used here???

What would it matter? Drury as it is generally played shows a limit raise (I know some bid it lighter). It doesn't really matter to me the exact way that partner has denied a limit raise.

[Winstonm]

How is it possible to invite when partner has shown a limited 7-9 HCP raise?? This is a clear pass. Partner could have bid Drury.

Have you never reached a 20-22 point game?

 

It doesn't have to be that much of a hand, even: Axxx, xx, QJx, xxxx - I would want to play 4S wouldn't you?

And of course if he has Axxx xx xxx QJxx we are too high in 3, and that's with Axxx of trumps and a doubleton and the QJ in the same suit! And what if he has xxx xxx Jxx KQJx? You could go down in 1!

I know. Ain't it exhilerating?

 

But here's the deal.....they pay a bonus for the risk if it works. How about dem apples? If I am going down in 2S, I would just as soon go down in 3 trying to make the bonus.

 

Really weird that with all the open light and bid-out-your-shape-on-the-way-to-slam responders, I am the one arguing for a game try while they are all the ones counting points.

 

BTW, I would pass and try to go plus at MPs. At imps I try for the game bonus.

 

Edit: BTW, I have only shown pretty minimum hands that have a play for game - there are also some heavier raises that work even with wasted club values.

 

AKx, xx, Qxxx, xxxx or Axxx, xxx, Kxx, Qxx.

[Winstonm]

I would pass.

 

I expect partner to bid drury with a good 9-count and with all 10-counts. That doesn't mean game can't make but passing seems to be with the odds.

Just a question, not trying to start a fight. Does your partner place those same restrictions on your bidding, i.e., are you not allowed to exercise judgement about bad, fair, good, and excellent 10 counts and alter your bid based on your judgement?

[jdonn]

If I am going down in 2S, I would just as soon go down in 3 trying to make the bonus.

Of course it is not common to be going down in 2, I was merely attempting to demonstrate the sillyness of trying to prove a point by crafting a couple great fitting example hands. Much more likely that you are making 2 and going down in 3, or making 2 or 3 and going down when partner bids 4.

 

Really weird that with all the open light and bid-out-your-shape-on-the-way-to-slam responders, I am the one arguing for a game try while they are all the ones counting points.

Come on, that is about as ridiculous an argument as if I were to say "Really weird that opposite such a sound bidder, I am the one arguing for going plus while he is the one trying to prove himself right with carefully constructed example hands."

 

BTW, since when am I a light opener? Ok ok I probably have to be reminded again, it's not always about me.

 

BTW, I would pass and try to go plus at MPs.   At imps I try for the game bonus.

But what about that 'bonus for the risk if it works'? They don't pay a bonus at matchpoints? No wonder I find that game so frustrating.

 

Edit: BTW, I have only shown pretty minimum hands that have a play for game - there are also some heavier raises that work even with wasted club values.

I see. Call Axxx xx QJx xxxx a "pretty minimum hand" for a raise to 2♠, then accuse the other side of "counting points". Uh.....ok :(

 

AKx, xx, Qxxx, xxxx or Axxx, xxx, Kxx, Qxx.

Yes, your 9 count with AK of trumps a doubleton and nothing wasted opposite your singleton, as well as your 9 count with four trumps, neither of which have even a jack to be found, both give you a game that is (very roughly) on a finesse. As Peter Griffin would say, that's it? That's your ace in the hole??

[Winstonm]

Of course it is not common to be going down in 2, I was merely attempting to demonstrate the sillyness of trying to prove a point by crafting a couple great fitting example hands

 

I agree. The crux of the argument is how often is exactly 2 the right spot. I confess I do not know.

 

I do, though, think that the opened hand re-evaluates to well above minimum after the raise, so then the question becomes how often will I find the good or super fit and make game versus how often I go down pushing too high.

 

I totally confess I don't know. But my evaluative eye tells me that this hand is being undervaluated by those who pass. 6-loser hands are more typically hands that would jump support or jump rebid.

 

Of course, you have to realize that I have always played a style where responder is allowed to use judgement and may well have a "heavy" 2S bid - even when playing Drury. We also tend not to respond lightish. As example, my partners could show up with AKx, xxx, QJx, xxx after this 2S bid.

 

Knowing responding styles certainly makes a difference.

[han]

I would pass.

 

I expect partner to bid drury with a good 9-count and with all 10-counts. That doesn't mean game can't make but passing seems to be with the odds.

Just a question, not trying to start a fight. Does your partner place those same restrictions on your bidding, i.e., are you not allowed to exercise judgement about bad, fair, good, and excellent 10 counts and alter your bid based on your judgement?

I'm not sure what restrictions you are talking about. We have discussed what a drury bid shows, so when he doesn't bid drury I don't expect him to hold such a hand. If that's a restriction, they apply to both of us. In general we are both encouraged to upgrade or downgrade as we think is right.