benlessard Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 When I preempt, it isn't because I want to buy the hand, and lead-direction is only a secondary objective. The main purpose of preemption is to take away the opponents' bidding space, in the hope that this causes them to play at the wrong level or in the wrong strain If you are hoping than your 2D is going to stop them for slam or push them in the wrong game more often than you will suffer a bad big number its either because you think opps can relay the hand a reach a tough to bid slam or you play against weak players. I believe that vs better than average players it will help them more (in the play and in the bidding) then it will annoyed them. So you are risking a penalty for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 2♦ Agree with gnasher's posts (except I bid instead of passing :) ) Definitely would not bid 2NT for the minors if it were available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Would anyone consider 2NT if it shows both minors and a weak hand? Not at all, I've played some 2 suiters for a while, and the only time you want a 6-4 to sound like a 5-5 is when the suit qualities are extremelly biased towards the 4 card suit. On this hand not only does it not happen, it also commits us to the 3 leve AND it gives LHO a free bid of double to penalice us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ochinko Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 So, continuing my new role of discussion policeman: IMHO, any partner worth the name would understand the 3rd-seat aspect of a weak 2-bid and never hang you so you go for a number. It's kind of like balancing - partner should know you already bid his cards when you opened 2D.The main risk of preempting isn't that partner will overcompete. The risks are that:- You are already too high and get caught.- You tell them how to make a contract that would otherwise have gone down.- You encourage them to play in a making 3NT instead of a non-making suit contract.The difference between balancing and third seat preempting is that you are pretty much obliged to balance, whereas preempting is more a matter of personal choice and evaluation. That said, I am on Winston's side here. Competent opponents are certain to get to their best contract when we don't intervene. Taking away valuable bidding space from them decreases their chances significantly. It is true that I may help the declarer but more often my bid serves to guide partner not to blow a trick on the lead. Furthermore, since partner is a passed hand my strength can vary very much, up to an opening hand, so the declarer can still use only the distribution info, and even that is not certain, because I could even have a side 4CM which I wouldn't have in first seat. You could go for a number, but percentagewise your distribution practically compels you to preempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 If I had a 2D bid available - and I don't that is what I would bid. Passing a 6-4 if you have available mechanism is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianshark Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 A 2♦ pre-empt will get in the way no matter who your opponents are. Even Meckwell would rather have a nice tidy uncontested auction starting at the 1-level. I think I would bid 2♦. You may go for a number, but your 6-4 shape is a pretty nice feature. A calculated risk that I think is worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Just for the fun of it. What % of times do you think that your preempt will put them in a bad contract (that lose imps vs the contract they would reach if they had a free run. What % of times do you think that your preempt will put them in an good contract. What % do you expect to get nailed and lose at least 9 imps (-800 vs a game or -500 vs a partscore). What % do you expect that because of the overcall declarer can read and go plus instead of minus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianshark Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Wild guess: 8%, 2%, 2%, 0.5%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Just for the fun of it. What % of times do you think that your preempt will put them in a bad contract (that lose imps vs the contract they would reach if they had a free run. What % of times do you think that your preempt will put them in an good contract. What % do you expect to get nailed and lose at least 9 imps (-800 vs a game or -500 vs a partscore). What % do you expect that because of the overcall declarer can read and go plus instead of minus. The more important question, IMO, is how often will good players reach the correct contract given an uncontested auction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 its included. What % of times do you think that your preempt will put them in a bad contract (that lose imps vs the contract they would reach if they had a free run So if they reached a bad contract with or without your 2D is doesnt count So if they reached a good contract no matter what is doesnt count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 as usual I agree with The Shark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 I opened 2D, I wasn't sure if this was sane at these colors, so thanks all for your responses. This time it worked out well. LHO bid 4S and RHO passed. I don't think either of them did something crazy but the hands fit well and 6S was laydown. It is not clear to me that they would have found slam if I had passed, but I think they would have had a better shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Whenever they have a game, it's fairly safe (that's the case here). Not that it's really less dangerous when they have a game, just that, when they don't, you might get into the "dbled vs nothing" problem. That shifts the odds towards safer openers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtvesuvius Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 I put in a reluctant vote for 2♦... As painful as it is, I want my partner to be able to bid 3♦ with any decent support. It will also create a problem for LHO when he has a huge hand, or a notrump opener... I will live with the risk of going for -800 occaisionally. If 2♦ is already used for another conventional bid, it seems logical to pass... AJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcurt Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Pass. Pass Pass Pass Pass. You have neither major so preempting is not going to put LHO to any difficult decision since he's almost always going to have both majors and can double, or one major than he can overcall. Sure you might push them to an inferior strain but * you have an ace which severely limits the chances they can make a slam* you aren't playing matchpoints so the opponents can take the safest game-sized plus (any of 500, 600, 620, 630) even if it isn't the maximum plus, and the most they will lose is 4 IMPs (500 vs 630-660)* your call is going to increase the chance they play NT, which is probably their safest game* and you are running the risk that they check 2♦x out for 800-1100 when either of them has 4 of the 7 missing trumps* if partner raises, you are going to throw up Note that I would be much more tempted to preempt with, say, 1462 shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 I suspect I would have opened it at the table, but I marginally prefer a pass. Preempting 2♦ takes away a few steps in the auction, but in return they get cuebids at various levels and information about the lie of our cards on defence. Most of the times that we "push" them into the wrong contract will just be noise - for every ten times their uncontested auction would have been better, they might have eight times that they reach a better spot after we preempt. Obviously, to steal a Hrothgar phrase, I'm pulling numbers out of my ass, but you get the idea. The times that preempts work best are when you reach a sensible final contract before the oppo have sorted themselves out on a hand where assets are reasonably evenly split. Say you can make 2D and they can make 2S; LHO may find he has the choice between passing 2D out and bidding 2S which will fetch a raise from partner. If you are preempting on a five-count opposite a passed partner, there is no chance that this scenario will occur. This is being demonstrated at the highest level by the Italians. Fantunes play intermediate-strength twos, were it is much more likely that there is a part-score battle on (especially in third); Likewise, if I have deciphered their CC correctly, Lauria-Versace play IJOs except at favourable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Pass. Pass Pass Pass Pass. You have neither major so preempting is not going to put LHO to any difficult decision since he's almost always going to have both majors and can double, or one major than he can overcall. [snip] Note that I would be much more tempted to preempt with, say, 1462 shape. What would you prefer? That LHO had neither major? The most problematic hands for him to have are probably 5-3, 5-4 and 6-4 in the majors, particularly if he's not strong enough to double then bid a new suit. Preferring to preempt on 1462 seems bizarre, it just increases the (admittedly still small) chance that they have no game on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Note that I would be much more tempted to preempt with, say, 1462 shape. 1462 makes it substantially less likely that opponents have game than when you have 1264. Having shortness in both majors is the best time to preempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Are we really going to puke when partner raises? Presumably partner won't raise a 3rd seat preempt on a flat hand with 3-card support, would he? I think if partner raises, this hand will probably play well enough to stay out of really serious trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Note that I would be much more tempted to preempt with, say, 1462 shape. 1462 makes it substantially less likely that opponents have game than when you have 1264. Having shortness in both majors is the best time to preempt. More important, I think, is that 1264 makes it much more likely that they'll end up in the wrong major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianshark Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Agree with Han, I'll be delighted if partner raises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodr Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Pass, why bother with a crappy minor suited hand. Bidding 2♦ only helps opponents in their major suit game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.