1♣-2♠-4♥ and 3♥-X-P-4NT

[kenrexford]

Partner opens a minor. RHO overcalls 2♠. You bid 4♥. Meaning?

 

LHO opens 3♥, doubled by partner. RHO passes. You bid 4NT. Meaning?

[RichMor]

Splinter.

 

Blackwood.

[kfay]

I agree splinter on the first one.

 

The second one I basically ran into just last night. I tried to intend it as quantitative. Don't know what the common treatment is, though.

[helene_t]

First one clearly to play. Very surprised that some otherwise sane people think it's a splinter :)

 

Second is quanti.

[cherdano]

4♥ is to play, of course!!!!!!

 

4N on the second is minors.

 

I thought you know Kevin, Helene? :)

[Gerben42]

First one: 4♥ = to play, or fitjump if specifically agreed (danger!)

 

Second one: Impossible to be Blackwood, remains minors and quantitative. I guess quantitative. Sometimes you just are too good for 3NT!

[Ant590]

I play the first as a fit-jump by agreement.

 

The second I play as RKC in ♠, again by agreement.

[Finch]

First one is a desire to play in 4H.

Second one I have agreed to play as quantitative.

 

I was practising on BBO with an irregular partner a few weeks ago, it came up, and he also thought it should be natural (but then he already knew my rule about things being natural if they possibly could be).

[OleBerg]

4♥ to play. (Jump to game ih a higher-ranking suit.) Both splinter and fitbids makes sense, but that would have to be agreed upon.

 

4NT for the minors or quant. Depends on who I play with.

[Codo]

1. If you want an easy life, 4 ♥ is to play.

 

With mad scientists I guess fit jump or splinter are both possible and playable.

 

2. 4 NT are the minors

[kgr]

(3H)-DBL-(P)-4NT

(P)-??

 

4NT = quantitative.

What exactly is meant with quantitative? When should DBLer bif 6NT or 7NT here?

[TylerE]

I would expect something like a max strong NT for 4N. Basically, dbler is supposed to bid 6 on any hand when he wasn't joking with initial X.

[gnasher]

I usually play 4♥ as natural, but I can live with a fit jump. We're very unlikely to have been dealt a splinter in this auction.

 

I think 4NT is best played as natural. With both minors you can bid 4♥ followed by 4NT. The alternative, of playing 4NT as the minors and 4♥ followed by 4NT as natural, works badly when partner doesn't bid 4♠ over your 4♥.

[mikeh]

4♥ to play... not as strong as 3♥, but a very long suit

 

4N natural. Partner needs a King more than he showed, via his takeout double, to move.

[jdonn]

1. Natural, about the same as a 4♥ opener. Because

- When the opponents bid any suits, I don't play splinters in any other suits.

- I don't play fit jumps at game level.

- If it might be natural then I probably mean it as natural.

 

2. 2 suits, although quantitative is fine. It's my experience that you get the 2 places to play meaning a LOT more often though.

[mikeh]

1. Natural, about the same as a 4♥ opener. Because

- When the opponents bid any suits, I don't play splinters in any other suits.

- I don't play fit jumps at game level.

- If it might be natural then I probably mean it as natural.

 

2. 2 suits, although quantitative is fine. It's my experience that you get the 2 places to play meaning a LOT more often though.

If I understand correctly, 4n as two places to play will be choice of minor games (with slam moves possible) or choice of a minor game OR a slam-invitational spade-minor holding...while I can agree that, a priori, two places to play will arise more often than the natural meaning, restricting the spade combinations to slam tries will reduce the frequency somewhat... and using it with no slam interest, in spades, makes no sense at all.. partner did double 3♥, so the one suit we know he fits is spades.

 

I am not saying it is unplayable in the above sense.. it seems to me that it really comes down to personal taste as to whether 4N is natural or minors (or two places to play)... using it for one renders the other difficult to show.. for example, Andy's idea that the alternative of 4♥ then 4N as natural (with the immediate 4N as minors/ two places to play) suffers not only when doubler surprises us by not bidding 4♠ but also from the problem that many of us (me, for one) would prefer 4♥ - 4♠ - 4N as keycard in spades.

[kgr]

4N natural. Partner needs a King more than he showed, via his takeout double, to move.

This quantitative is clear in a 1NT-4NT context for me, but it is less here.

What did partner show and when has he a K extra?

...as a beginner, I prefer Tylere's description that 4NT shows something like a max strong NT (...not sure I like the something in it)

[mikeh]

4N natural. Partner needs a King more than he showed, via his takeout double, to move.

This quantitative is clear in a 1NT-4NT context for me, but it is less here.

What did partner show and when has he a K extra?

...as a beginner, I prefer Tylere's description that 4NT shows something like a max strong NT (...not sure I like the something in it)

3-level takeout doubles should be stronger than 1-level doubles, since we are forcing partner to bid two levels higher.. only partially offset by the fact that a preemptive opner shows a lot less than a one-level opener, hence we have a higher expectation of values in partner's hand. To me, a prototypical double would be something like AJxx x KJxx KJxx.. this is a solid but minimum takeout double. You can see that opposite this type of hand, advancer needs solid values to make 4N safe.

 

To accept a natural 4N, make doubler AKJx x KJxx KJxx or AJxx x KQxx KQJx, preferably with some texture in the way of a couple of 10's... these examples are minimums to move, not average.

[kenrexford]

I whipped these out in a put-together partnership, making my calls ridiculous. However, I was curious as to the general take.

 

There is no general take. LOL

[han]

My general take on this is that the first is clearly natural, and one should not whip their partners with the second undiscussed.

[peachy]

First = to play. Second = without agreements I think minors. But what what would 4H mean?

[cherdano]

I think 4NT is best played as natural. With both minors you can bid 4♥ followed by 4NT. The alternative, of playing 4NT as the minors and 4♥ followed by 4NT as natural, works badly when partner doesn't bid 4♠ over your 4♥.

The alternative is not to have a natural NT slam invite. The hands where we want to invite to 6NT and partner will accept are probably rare (assuming partner needs and extra king to accept, as Mike is suggesting), and usually we can live with playing 3♥ X instead of 4N.

 

Anyone who wouldn't take 4♥ in the first auction as natural in a pickup partnership should have his driving license revoked immediately.

[gnasher]

The alternative is not to have a natural NT slam invite. The hands where we want to invite to 6NT and partner will accept are probably rare (assuming partner needs and extra king to accept, as Mike is suggesting), and usually we can live with playing 3♥ X instead of 4N.

True, but equally hands where we want to bid RKCB and partner will not have enough keycards are also rare, so we can usually live with bidding slam. Also, a "natural" 4NT bid might include a 5- or 6-card minor, since there isn't any way to invite slam in a minor. Passing 3♥x with these hands is less attractive.

 

If we could rely on partner to bid 4♠ over 4♥, we could cope with all three hand-types:

 

4NT = natural (or ace-asking)

4♥-4♠-4NT = ace-asking (or natural)

4♥-4♠-5♣ = minors, choice of games

4♥-4♠-6♣ = minors, choice of slams

[MFA]

I play (3♥) - X - (pass) - 4♥ as a good 4♠-bid. So 4♥ followed by 4NT is RKC for spades.

 

RE the two auctions:

1. Clearly natural with long hearts and medium strength.

2. 2-suiter, minors until we tell partner otherwise. Thought this was more standard than it apparently is.

[whereagles]

1m (2♠) 4♥ = natural. Remember Fred's rule: "If it can be natural, then it is!!!"

 

(3♥) dbl (pass) 4NT = this is more complicated

 

If you're playing standard dbls, where you guarantee 3 cards in every unbid suit, then you COULD use this as quantitative. That's because with a 55 or 54 in the minors you just bid a 5 card suit and opener will have support.

 

If you're using stuff like ELC, then there's a case for putting shape before strength and using 4NT for the minors. That avoids situations like

 

(3♥) dbl (pass) 5♣

 

in which an ELC doubler has no clue whether he's supposed to pull to 5♦ with a 4351 or to just leave it at 5♣. If 4NT were for the minors, this would be to LEAVE it, since advancer would bid 4NT with minors.