The heart suit - Ia

[Finch]

Teams of 8, cross-imps

vul against not

 

The majority vote on the first thread is to bid 6♥ - although most of the people who have voiced an opinion are 5♥ bidders.

 

Well, at the table this hand chose to bid 6♥. However the auction is not yet over...

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=shaj10752dk942ck42]133|100|Scoring: IMP

3♠ 3NT 4♠ 6♥

P 7♥ 7♠ ?[/hv]

[mikeh]

for 7N to be right, we need one heck of a specific hand over there.. even in the context of partner showing one heck of a good hand for hearts.

 

But he may have it... Ax Kxxx Axx AQJx.. and he could be stronger.

 

So I pass.

 

BTW, presumably he would have bumped 5♥ to 6 and rho would have bid 6♠ and we would have passed and partner would have bid 7... now... having made us guess to bid grand on this auction, maybe rho would have passed?

 

Heck, with the hand that makes 7N, maybe he should cue 5♠ over 5♥?

[jdonn]

Normally pass here would show the ace of spades, but I think the logic of the auction dictates it simply shows a suitable hand in this case, so I'll pass.

[cherdano]

We can't have less than that for 6♥, so I double. I find it curious that two of the 5♥ bidders on the previous round want to pass now! Double doesn't preclude partner from bidding 7N.

[Finch]

BTW, presumably he would have bumped 5♥ to 6 and rho would have bid 6♠ and we would have passed and partner would have bid 7... now... having made us guess to bid grand on this auction, maybe rho would have passed?

If you had bid 5♥ last round, it's true that partner would not have passed, but I can't tell you what your RHO would have done next.

 

p.s. I've just noticed that I forget to include 7NT as an option in the poll. But it's probably not a very good call, so I don't feel that guilty.

[mr1303]

Part of the reason that I bid 6H last time was the spade void. I don't like this so much in NT, so I double even though partner is pretty much marked with the spade ace.

 

Can partner pull this one? Not that I expect he will.

[jdonn]

We can't have less than that for 6♥, so I double. I find it curious that two of the 5♥ bidders on the previous round want to pass now! Double doesn't preclude partner from bidding 7N.

For your first comment, I have no idea how an auction like this can be bid quantitatively. I don't think pass is some sort of extra strength for a bid which no one knows the range of anyway, it just says you are suitable for a 7NT bid if partner wants to make it, which this hand would be due to the controls and support for any suit partner wants to run.

 

I also do not find it inconsistent to invite the grand even if I wouldn't have bid 6♥. The main reason for 5♥ last round was I had no guarantee of heart support of any kind, obviously it's a very different situation when I now know we have heart support AND when partner is able to raise to a grand on an auction that is total guesswork. Usually grands reached on auctions like this have extra tricks galore since people hate to guess to bid a grand unless they are pretty much sure.

 

In fact, the more I think about this I'm almost talking myself into just bidding 7NT. Saying double doesn't preclude partner from bidding 7NT sounds fine, but I don't think he will ever do it.

[mikeh]

We can't have less than that for 6♥, so I double. I find it curious that two of the 5♥ bidders on the previous round want to pass now! Double doesn't preclude partner from bidding 7N.

Hey, maybe we're just flexible B)

 

Seriously, 3N could be on many, many hand types... especially over 3♠, so partner may well have had a very poor hand, in terms of hearts... and 5♥ is not a weakness-showing bid... partner is allowed, and expected, to evaluate his hand for hearts when choosing his next call... when he shows an excellent hand for hearts, we re-evaluate... I don't see any inconsistency here at all.

[Codo]

We all want partner to have the ace of spades, but why should he have it?

So I guess 7 NT isno good idea.

 

I agree with Arend that 6 Heart showed a lot of my hand, so I double now and leave the final pass to partner.

[jdonn]

We all want partner to have the ace of spades, but why should he have it?

He bid a grand slam, so the only possible way he wouldn't have it is if he could infer we are void. There are a number of reasons that is unlikely.

- The opponents sacrificed at the 7 level, they probably have extra trump length. So partner is very unlikely to have enough spades to infer we are void.

- He can never be 100% sure anyway. The opponents don't always have as many trumps as you expect.

- He probably wouldn't want to take that chance since he is already taking a chance on the other cards he is missing.

[MarkDean]

For those who pass, can you give an example or two of hands with which you would bid 6♥ then double 7♠?

[han]

It would be especially enlightening if those who would bid 5H and then pass 7S would post a hand where they would bid 6H then double 7S.

[655321]

Double.

 

It would be a bit embarrassing to have partner, with his spade void, bid 7NT on the grounds that our Pass of 7♠ showed the Ace of Spades.

[MarkDean]

Double.

 

It would be a bit embarrassing to have partner, with his spade void, bid 7NT on the grounds that our Pass of 7♠ showed the Ace of Spades.

Partner overcalled 3NT

[655321]

Double.

 

It would be a bit embarrassing to have partner, with his spade void, bid 7NT on the grounds that our Pass of 7♠ showed the Ace of Spades.

Partner overcalled 3NT

Good point! Still, I double anyway.

[effervesce]

I double. 7NT requires waaay too much from partner - he most certainly has the A of spades for the 7♥ bid, but even with hearts running we need 4 more covers for the minors. AQ diamonds, AQ clubs may do it; Axx Kxxx AQx AQx is possible but is it likely?

[nige1]

IMO _X = 10, _P = 2, 7N = 1

IMO any bid other than _X, promises ♠A.

Partner may have ♠ KQxx ♥ KQx ♦ AQJ ♣ AQJ

[mikeh]

<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> West </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> N/S </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> Teams of 8 </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td>  cross-imps </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td>  </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> AJ10752 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> K942,K42 </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> 3♠ 3NT 4♠ 6♥

P 7♥ 7♠ ?

The majority vote on the first thread is to bid 6♥ - although most of the people who have voiced an opinion are 5♥ bidders. Well, at the table this hand chose to bid 6♥.  However the auction is not yet over... </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->

IMO _X = 10, _P = 2, 7N = 1

IMO any bid other than _X, promises ♠A.

Partner may have ♠ KQxx ♥ KQx ♦ AQJ ♣ AQJ

Sorry... he bid 7♥ on KQxx in spades, the opps bid 7♠, and you can construct a hand on which partner can play you for the spade Ace? Where do you find these players?

[han]

Mike, I agree with you that passing won't get you to 7NT missing the spade ace. However, I'm still curious to know what you think a 6H bid followed by a double shows. Would it show a weaker but more distriutional hand with stronger hearts, something like x AQJ10xxx K109x x?

[mikeh]

Mike, I agree with you that passing won't get you to 7NT missing the spade ace. However, I'm still curious to know what you think a 6H bid followed by a double shows. Would it show a weaker but more distriutional hand with stronger hearts, something like x AQJ10xxx K109x x?

Han, you posted earlier about what kind of hand could bid 6♥ and then double 7♠. I didn't answer because I couldn't come up with one.. but I truly don't think that this means anything at all.

 

The fact is that any hand that makes an immediate 6♥ a reasonable shot HAS to offer a shot at 13 tricks in notrump after partner raises to 7♥. Whether 7N is a good contract will usually depend on WHY partner raised to 7.

 

Obviously he has the missing Aces and he has either KQx or Kxxx in hearts... but does he hold, for example, Axx Kxxx AQJx Ax.. where he expects that he can maybe ruff a club or two to generate an extra trick, or does he have the nuts... Ax Kxxx AQJx AQJ... where, when we show interest, he can expect to find the minor Kings in our hand?

 

So I see the forcing pass as asking partner WHY he bid 7♥, rather than having us express an opinion.

 

Incidentally, I would have bid only 5♥ earlier because, as I have suggested, in my view 3N didn't promise ANYTHING in hearts, and while the 10 makes the suit play reasonably well opposite xx, the chances of bad breaks and the fact that 5♥ is forward going makes that call my choice.. but I think it is close, and there are undoubtedly days when I would bid the slam. However, and this is a long-winded way of saying this, I think that both approaches might get you to the same dilemma.. is an opp who bids 7/7 really going to allow 6♥ to slide past him? maybe, but surely most opps would think that the opps struggled to reach slam and now are about to bid 7? Plus, as I suggested, with a true super-max, partner should bid 5♠, not 6♥... and a hand that was close to a 6♥ call over 4♠ should logically accept the grand invitation... and that gets us back to the fp scenario anyway.

[jdonn]

_X = 10, _P = 2, 7N = 1

IMO any bid other than _X, promises ♠A.

Since partner holds the ace of spades, I bet he can work it out!

[han]

I don't get it Mike. Yes I agree that with any hand worth a 6H bid we may have play for 7NT, but given that partner knows this, he can still bid 7NT if we double. It is our obligation to help partner make that decision. If we think our hand is such that if partner chooses to bid 7NT then it will be right a very good percentage of the time, then we should pass. If not then we should double.

 

By this I don't mean to say that I know what's right here, pass or double. I think it is a very difficult question, I am not sure with which hands partner would bid 7NT if we pass. I think we could be better (for example we could have a 7th heart) so I'm tempted to double.

[maggieb]

Double is really clear, I don't want partner to bid 7NT unless she is absolutely sure it makes.

[jdonn]

One thing not yet said is that partner is never going to bid 7NT if we double, it's silly that people keep suggesting that is possible. If partner is so sure that 7NT makes that he is willing to overrule us if we say it won't make, then why wouldn't he have bid it last round?

 

I think it's silly to ask for example hands Han, none of us have ever had this auction before. Someone show me the example where partner overcalls 3NT, raises 6♥ to 7♥, then pulls our double to 7NT.

[han]

I don't buy that Josh.