1m - (1H) - 1S: promises 4 or 5?

[Quarky]

If bidding goes 1m by your partner, 1H overcall on your right, does your 1S promise 5+ cards normally? I thought it is still 4+, so i Xed with a 3244 as pard opened 1C and i only had 4 of non-fantastic clubs (so didnt bid 2H).

[matmat]

1♠ there should promise 5. with 4 you neg x

[the hog]

Though some players play the above style, this is somewhat old fashioned now; a much better way of playing is that 1S shows 4+S, and the sputnik X shows the hand that might otherwise be hard to bid, say C or D and no H stopper.

[jdonn]

Standard is 1♠ shows 5. You can make the agreement that it shows 4+ but that is not standard. Of course it may be more common in certain areas. It's not clear which is better either, and there are other more complicated options too, but that doesn't really matter for your question.

[Cascade]

I'm with Ron.

 

Using the two cheapest calls (after pass) both to show one suit strikes me as being terribly inefficient.

 

I concede however that double showing four spades and 1♠ showing 5+ is standard.

[P_Marlowe]

Matter of agreement.

 

You can play, that 1S showes at least 4 card,

denies 4 cards, showes 5 cards.

You just have to agree with partner.

 

On the BBO Forum players from North Amercia

dominnate, and the dominant style in NA is, that

1S showes at least 5 cards.

 

Tell us, where you are from, and someone will tell

you, what is common where you live.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[han]

What jdonn said.

[cherdano]

If bidding goes 1m by your partner, 1H overcall on your right, does your 1S promise 5+ cards normally? I thought it is still 4+, so i Xed with a 3244 as pard opened 1C and i only had 4 of non-fantastic clubs (so didnt bid 2H).

Raising with 4 clubs is absolutely fine.

I also agree with all Josh said.

[Free]

Though some players play the above style, this is somewhat old fashioned now; a much better way of playing is that 1S shows 4+S, and the sputnik X shows the hand that might otherwise be hard to bid, say C or D and no H stopper.

I prefer the other way around:

Dbl = 4+♠

1♠ = values without a clear bid

 

Standard however, 1♠ shows 5+♠s...

[awm]

I like 1♠ = 5+♠ and double = 4♠, which is also standard.

 

These hands where you want to compete but have no call are actually quite infrequent if partner's minor suit opening is natural. You almost always have one of:

 

(1) A balanced hand, which can bid 1NT even without stopper.

(2) Enough length in hearts that you are happy to defend if pd can't balance.

(3) A good enough fit for partner that you can raise his minor (four cards is enough).

(4) A good enough hand that you can make a 2-level bid in the other minor (occasionally on four).

 

If I was playing a system where my 1m openings are artificial (i.e. where I often open 1m on two cards or fewer in that suit, and/or with more length in the other minor than the one I opened) then I like the double = 4+♠ and 1♠ = "takeout" less than four spades treatment mentioned by Free.

[jdonn]

(1) A balanced hand, which can bid 1NT even without stopper.

Huh?? Perhaps you are mixing this up with opener's rebid in a similar situation, which is different of course with the lead coming from the suit instead of away from it, and with being forced to act as opposed to responder who has the option of passing over the overcall.

[the hog]

Actually I do prefer Free's way as well.

BTW: What do you do the X = 4S players do with Kxx xx KQxxx xxx or similar?

Bid 1NT or pass I suppose? I hate 1NT with this, and pass seems pretty lame.

[jdonn]

Actually I do prefer Free's way as well.

BTW: What do you do the X = 4S players do with Kxx xx KQxxx xxx or similar?

Bid 1NT or pass I suppose? I hate 1NT with this, and pass seems pretty lame.

Pass. Obviously a hand like that is a gain for the way you play. And obviously a hand with spades is a gain for the other way since opener has a better idea how many responder has. Neither of those facts are particularly shocking.

[the hog]

Didn't say it was shocking, however If you play support Xs I think this is a far better way to play. You really will have problems only if overcaller's pd raises to the 3 level. If she passes you have a normal bid, which includes raising on a 3 card suit. If she bids 2H you have a support X. I much prefer this to having to pass on the above hand.

Anyway: De gustibus non est disputandum.

[jdonn]

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Absolutely :) I'll mention that the method I like best is X as 4 or 5 spades, and transfers through 2♥ (1♠ is essentially a 1NT bid with or without a stopper and 2♥ is 6+ spades, negative freebid strength or better). But my main point all along is simply that none of these methods are Pareto improvements over standard, and I guess you agree.

[han]

Maybe I misunderstood the question. If the OP wants to know what methods I play then yes, I play the similar as Josh:

 

Dbl = 4-5 spades

1S = denies 4 spades, not suitable for other bid. Often balanced without a stopper or a weakish raise of the minor.

2m = forcing, at least invitational.

2om = forcing though opener's suit.

2H = 6+ hearts, any strength.

2S = mixed raise of opener's minor.

3m = weak.

[skjaeran]

Maybe I misunderstood the question. If the OP wants to know what methods I play then yes, I play the similar as Josh:

 

Dbl = 4-5 spades

1S = denies 4 spades, not suitable for other bid. Often balanced without a stopper or a weakish raise of the minor.

2m = forcing, at least invitational.

2om = forcing though opener's suit.

2H = 6+ hearts, any strength.

2S = mixed raise of opener's minor.

3m = weak.

2♥=6+ spades I guess