Questions after ACBL bidding book

[mm_aa]

Hi!

 

We're learning bridge with my friends using ACBL books. And there are a couple of questions I have after studying several lessons:

 

1) We started with first edition of the bidding book, and today brand-new "bidding in 21st century" arrived. These books differ in amount of points enough for game: 26 for 4maj vs. 25 for 4maj, 16-18 for 1NT and 15-17 for 1NT. So, the natural question arises: what's up? Are high cards more valuable now than 20 years ago?

 

2) The book often says that X amount of points is not enough for bidding at Y level. However there's no information how much point should I have for other levels except 4+ with trumps and 3+ NT. What are they?

 

3) This book (and many other online material) right after opening lesson have the "response to 1NT" lesson following. It's really strange, since there're almost no 1NT openings when we play. 1 trump responses are much more valuable for us. Is it normal that we don't feel almost no value in studying 1NT responses or does it mean that we're not opening accurately? I'm quite confused that much less valuable material is being studied first.

 

 

PS Before you start telling me that we should go to club/find a teacher, let me tell you: we _do_ understand that we have taken a difficult route. However we're all busy professionals and there seems to be no bridge clubs operating at 10PM - the time we usually can play for an hour :)

[vuroth]

Almost certainly others will have better answers than me.

 

1) I like 26 for a major/notrump game. I bet a lot of advanced/experts would go on 25, or even 24. I wouldn't really sweat the difference.

 

As for 1NT, a lot of people grew up on 16-18, but it seems that the modern way is 15-17. I don't think I've seen anyone play 16-18 at the club/online level.

 

One advantage of 15-17 is that the range that bids 1X (1y) 1NT is 12-14, which is smaller and more precise than if you played 16-18.

 

2) What I learned

3NT 26

4Major 26

5Minor 29

6any 33

7any 37

 

Of course, distribution will affect these numbers, except for notrump.

 

If you can't make game level (3NT, 4Major, 5Minor), there is NO advantage to bidding any higher than you need to. There is no difference in duplicate in the rewards for 1♦ or 4♦, or 1NT or 2NT, except of course that one is easier.

 

3) Sounds like you may be doing something wrong? I, personally, would open 99.9% of 5332, 4432 or 4333 hands in the 15-17 point range as 1NT. While some would disagree on certain contentious issues, I'm sure at least 90% of those hands would be widely consensus 1NT openers.

 

In fact, some players EXTEND the range of 1NT openers, taking certain 5422 or even 4441 hands as 1NT, just because the responses are so well defined.

 

(I'm sure by now, some of the better players are rolling their eyes at what I've said....)

 

...

 

As for the last, I can certainly sympathize with being a professional and struggling to find the time to learn. BBO has some excellent resources online for learning, some of which may be available at odd hours, due to time zone shifting.

 

V

[Finch]

Hi.

 

To answer your questions one at a time:

 

1. Yes, high cards are more valuable now than 20 years ago! Or rather, bridge players have got better at taking advantage of them. You will definitely be more in line with other ACBL players if you play a 15-17 1NT opening.

 

2. As you improve, you will learn that the combined points you need are only a guide: that with long suits, or lots of trumps between the hands, you can make a lot more tricks than the bare point count would assume. However, the standard guidance is:

 

A combined 33 points for a 6-level contract

A combined 37 points for a 7-level contract

 

At lower levels, there isn't really guidance for what you need, as the point of bidding is to find out what your combined strength is. However, the guidance becomes more based on what an individual hand needs

 

12+ points for you to open with 1 of a suit

6+ points for you to respond to 1 of a suit at the 1-level

10+ points for you to respond to 1 of a suit at the 2-level

16+ points for opener to make a jump rebid

(etc)

 

You may find this website helpful:

 

http://www.rpbridge.net/bgtc.htm

 

3. There are two answers to this question.

a) You probably aren't opening 1NT enough. All hands with 15-17 points, no singleton, not more than one doubleton, no 6-card or longer suit, no 5-card major should definitely be opened 1NT. Many players also open 1NT on a lot more hands than this, because they like doing so.

:) The reason all courses start here is that responses to 1NT are much easier than other bidding. Because the 1NT bidder has already defined their hand quite clearly (15-17 points, balanced hand) it's easier for their partner to work out what the final contract should be. Bidding after opening one of a suit is harder.

 

p.s. there are plenty of teachers operating online at 10pm, wherever in the world you are. You might like to play online with other beginners and get help that way (I'm sure someone else can tell you more about beginner's bridge on BBO).

 

But anyway, every person has their own best way to learn new things. Some people learn best by face-to-face teaching, some by reading, some by listening, some just by playing, some with a combination. There's nothing wrong with learning from a book if that suits you and your friends' style.

 

The main thing is that bridge is a great game, totally addictive, and once you start getting the hang of it, you won't want to stop!

[Finch]

By the way, when you post a question in a public forum, who knows how reliable the answers are?

 

Wait until you get quite a few replies. If everyone says the same thing, they are probably right. If you get conflicting answers, use your judgement to decide whom you trust.

 

FWIW, your questions are probably going to get fairly unanimous answers here. Wait until you get a bit better, and look at the arguments that start.

[mm_aa]

3) What I mean is that balanced hand with 16-18 (well, 15-17) points are quite rare. Are we dealing badly? My opening hands are usually 13-14. I haven't had any 1NT hands for 10-20 deals in a row. Over-shuffling? :)

[vuroth]

Maybe just over-shuffling. Maybe a small sample size.

 

Would you consider this a 1NT opener?

 

♠QJ2

♥AK7

♦QT965

♣A4

 

V

 

PS - I second Frances' advice of reading a few replies before deciding. For example, I am personally wrong around here fairly often. :)

[awm]

(1) I think what has happened is not so much that points have changed as that the form of scoring has changed. The guideline of "26 hcp" is the number of points you need such that you are very likely to make 3NT. But because the scoring table awards lots of points for bidding and making a game, it is actually good to bid 3NT even if it will only make half the time (or perhaps even slightly less). So in fact bidding 3NT with "25 hcp" is actually good strategy, even though the contract will fail roughly half the time.

 

(2) The scoring table rewards bidding games. Otherwise it is better to stop low. To see this, notice that 1♠ making three is the same score as 2♠ making three or 3♠ making three. However there is a huge difference between 3♠ making four and 4♠ making four. So the idea in bidding is to figure out if you can make a game contract (four of a major, 3NT, five of a minor). If you can, you really want to bid it to get that big score! If you can't, it is always better to play in the lowest contract (in the proper suit of course) that opponents will let you buy it for. So it doesn't really matter "how many points you need to make 3♠" -- if you have enough points for 4♠ bid it, otherwise play the smallest number of spades you can get away with.

 

(3) It's true that 1NT openings are not all that common, and that the books often emphasize 1NT openings rather than suit openings. There are several reasons for this. First, a lot of people play artificial methods (like transfers or stayman) over 1NT. Bidding after you open one of a suit is mostly natural, not nearly as many conventions. So it makes sense to spend some time on the 1NT auctions. Second, bidding over 1NT is usually pretty straightforward, whereas bidding over a suit is potentially more complicated because opener can have more different kinds of hands. On average a 15-17 1NT opening should come up about once every twenty deals.

 

It's also important to remember that a 1NT opening shows a hand with no singleton and at most two doubletons. It definitely does not deny holding a five card suit. So if you have, for example, 2♠, 3♥, 5♦, and 3♣ (and 15-17 hcp) you can open 1NT. Oftentimes new players see that they have five cards in a suit and open the suit when they should be opening 1NT.

[karlson]

I have one suggestion that deals a little bit with all the points you bring up that I'm sure will be echoed in some form or another.

 

Play a lot of hands and don't worry so much about the bidding.

 

Hopefully in this way you will get some idea not only of the amount of high cards you need to make a contract, but also of the power of a big trump fit, or of a very distributional hand.

 

There are two hard parts of bidding. One is simply learning the standard language (what does it show to partner if i bid 1nt, how do I tell partner I have spade support, etc). The other is evaluating your hand, (now that I know partner has 12-14 with 4 spades, what do I want to play). The first is the part that many books will concentrate on, and in some sense it's easier -- you can learn a few rules and memorize some sequences and start bidding the way that a lot of experts bid. However, the second, which is arguably more important, is impossible without having a good sense of how the play of the cards will go.

[pdmunro]

2) The book often says that X amount of points is not enough for bidding at Y level. However there's no information how much point should I have for other levels except 4+ with trumps and 3+ NT. What are they?

For suit contracts, the points scale of 26 = 10 tricks and 29 = 11 tricks suggests that 23 = 9 tricks and 20 = 8 tricks. The point ranges in bidding schemes are set up to get you to these levels with these number of points.

 

Say you open 1H with 13 points. When partner bids 2H in support, he shows 6-10 points. With 13 points you should pass and you are at the 2-level with between 19 and 23 points, waiting for your partner to put down dummy.

 

Say you open 1H with 17 points and partner again bids 2H showing 6-10 points. This time you bid 3H, inviting him to bid 4H ("game") with 9-10 points ("top of the range"). With only 6-7 points, partner should pass. Now you are in 3H with 23-24 points.

[P_Marlowe]

#1.1 On average, People bid games more agressive than

years before.

#1.2 It is always a question, what "points" really means,

do we just talk about high card points, or get points

for distributional features counted as well

#1.3 The NT range employed is a matter of taste, but for

various reason, the 16-18 NT opening got replaced

by a 15-17 NT opening

#2.? / 3.0 Just one advice: Try to find ONE source you trust,

and treat this as bible, try to ignore other sources.

If you read those other sources, try to get the logic,

the reasons, but dont even try and compare.

There are lots of variation out there, all are playable,

most are, but quite often not together.

#3.1 From a paedagogic point of view, the responses after

a 1NT opening are easier to teach than after a suit

opening.

All ideas after a 1 NT opening will show up, after a

opening with 1 in suit, so if you understand the

mechanics after a 1NT opening, you will have lots

of grounds covered, if you deal with opeings in 1 of

a suit, and you just need to discuss, what add. thing

need to be considered

 

With kind regads

Marlowe

[easy]

Hi!

 

We're learning bridge with my friends using ACBL books. And there are a couple of questions I have after studying several lessons:

 

1) We started with first edition of the bidding book, and today brand-new "bidding in 21st century" arrived. These books differ in amount of points enough for game: 26 for 4maj vs. 25 for 4maj, 16-18 for 1NT and 15-17 for 1NT. So, the natural question arises: what's up? Are high cards more valuable now than 20 years ago?

 

2) The book often says that X amount of points is not enough for bidding at Y level. However there's no information how much point should I have for other levels except 4+ with trumps and 3+ NT. What are they?

 

3) This book (and many other online material) right after opening lesson have the "response to 1NT" lesson following. It's really strange, since there're almost no 1NT openings when we play. 1 trump responses are much more valuable for us. Is it normal that we don't feel almost no value in studying 1NT responses or does it mean that we're not opening accurately? I'm quite confused that much less valuable material is being studied first.

 

 

PS Before you start telling me that we should go to club/find a teacher, let me tell you: we _do_ understand that we have taken a difficult route. However we're all busy professionals and there seems to be no bridge clubs operating at 10PM - the time we usually can play for an hour :)

hi welcome to the wonderful world of bridge.

 

I actually teach beginning bridge using the books you are refering to. let me see if i can give you some answers to your questions.

 

1) The point count ranges were changed to reflect the current style of bidding in the usa. I remember when the original series was published i questioned the use of the 16-18 no trump range. Even then the no trump range of 15-17 was predominant in the states.

 

2) The book "bidding" is the first of 5 texts used in this series to teach bridge. the course is designed to give you the basic skills needed when deciding partscore versus game. Higher level bidding is (i presume) deemed to difficult for this course level. ( note every time i teach the portion in the 2nd chapter re: scoring many students throw up their hands in disgust and confusion.)

 

3) Responding to 1nt is taught early on because there are fewer bids and options when partner opens no trump than when he opens 1 of a suit. The no trump opener has a limited range of points (15-17) thus it is easier for the student to decide upon a course of action.

 

4) Higher level bidding will be discussed in future texts. the series of books consists of

 

Bidding - basic bidding and a light discourse on overcalls, takeout doubles and stayman - some card play instruction as well

Play of the Hand - includes review of bidding learned in "bidding" plus how to play the cards

 

Defense - another review of bidding plus defensive leads and signals and defensive strategy

Commonly used conventions - just as the title says

More commonly used conventions - ditto

 

hang in there. by the end of the 8th chapter you and your friends will be able to sit around around the kitchen table and enjoy bridge as much as we oldtimers do! i would suggest playing as often as possible to reinforce what you are learning

 

Good luck

 

Fred

[Stephen Tu]

(1) People open the bidding and bid game more aggressively these days. I think the 16-18NT/26 for game perhaps is a holdover from old rubber bridge oriented texts where bidding a fairly thin game perhaps isn't as attractive at both nil since a completed partial gets you half-way to the game bonus if you can get another partial before the opponents score game. Whereas now here & in clubs it's all duplicate where partials don't carryover to the next hand.

 

Not having played any substantial amount of rubber bridge I might be wrong about this.

 

 

(2) vuroth covered this

 

(3) As others mentioned it's just the easiest point to start with, point ranges are well defined, you introduce the concept of searching for major suit fits & bidding to the appropriate level.

 

(4) I am not a huge fan of the ACBL books, I think there are better authors available who are easier to follow, explain things more thoroughly. The path I would recommend to beginners is:

 

- "Bridge for Dummies", Kantar, 2nd edition combined with the "Learn to Play Bridge" tutorials by Gitelman available on BBO or as standalone downloads from http://web3.acbl.org/internet/websiteForms...pbForm?OpenForm

 

Follow with "How to Play a Bridge Hand" and "How to Defend a Bridge Hand" by Bill Root. And maybe Root's "Commonsense bidding" & "Modern Bridge Conventions", sticking only to the "1-star" conventions in the latter book at first.