Negative double response

[Hanoi5]

Holding:

 

♠K8 ♥Q108 ♦K8xx ♣KJ8x

 

It goes:

 

Pass 1♦ 2♥ X

Pass ???

 

Do you bid 2NT or 3♦? Is there another possibility? What makes you choose one or the onther? How many points should you have to bid 2NT?

[P_Marlowe]

You have the option to bid Pass, 2NT, 3C or 3D.

 

Pass is out, the suit is too weak.

3D is out, partner did not promise length in diamonds,

that leaves either 2NT or 3C.

 

I would go with 2NT, I have a stopper, I am balanced

and I have a min. opener, so 2NT descirbes the hand

pretty well.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Codo]

the less ugliest bid for me is 2 NT. I have the right shape and HCPs, just my stopper could have been "slightly" better.

But any other bid is an ever bigger gamble.

[hatchett]

2NT for me. A lot of the time you are going to have a weak NT in this situation and that is roughly how many points 2NT should show.

[Finch]

2NT, showing a minimum balanced hand.

I don't think this necessarily promises a heart stop at all, so Q10x is a bonus.

[Hanoi5]

So, how much does partner need to go to 3NT?

[Finch]

So, how much does partner need to go to 3NT?

We've shown a minimum balanced hand without four spades.

 

So he needs something that will make game opposite that. Basically the same hands that would raise a weak NT to game.

[JoAnneM]

I have one of the suits that partner asked me to bid, so I will bid it - 3C. That is my punishment for opening this hand.

 

There was a time when this garbage would not have been opened and the auction might have been more sane.

[Hanoi5]

What if you opened 1♣? Does it change? Would you bid 3♦ instead of 2NT over the double?

[TylerE]

This hand is one of the reasons I think a 10-12 (11-13/12-14) NT range is a big winner. You avoid all of these awkward auctions - when you open 1m you either have a rebiddable minor or at least strong NT values.

[Sadie3]

I bid 3C. Partner said he had the unbid suits. 2NT does not "feel" like a good place to be. :( If it were not for the heart holding, I would have really rather passed this hand in the first place and hoped my pard forced me to bid.

[jdonn]

2NT. Of course partner has shown four spades, he has said nothing about clubs. No reason he won't be 4333, 4432, etc.

[TimG]

What if you opened 1♣? Does it change? Would you bid 3♦ instead of 2NT over the double?

Today's negative doubles are not takeout bids in the classic sense of support for the unbid suits, shortness in the bid suit. They merely show four cards in the unbid major. This is, perhaps, not universal, but I think enough so that a pickup expert partner would assume unbid major only.

 

There is probably much less agreement about whether 1C-(1D)-DBL and 1D-(2C)-DBL show both majors.

[jdonn]

There is probably much less agreement about whether 1C-(1D)-DBL and 1D-(2C)-DBL show both majors.

That's pretty universal among experts too (ignorring the ones who use special methods of course.) The first one promises both majors since it's very easy to bid your major with just one. The second promises only one major, but you have to be prepared if partner bids the one you don't have which presumably means support for partner.

[barmar]

There is probably much less agreement about whether 1C-(1D)-DBL and 1D-(2C)-DBL show both majors.

That's pretty universal among experts too (ignorring the ones who use special methods of course.) The first one promises both majors since it's very easy to bid your major with just one. The second promises only one major, but you have to be prepared if partner bids the one you don't have which presumably means support for partner.

or a stopper in ♣ so you can bid 2NT.

[kenrexford]

I cannot believe this is actually getting a debate. 2NT -- WTP should be about universal.

[andy_h]

umm, first thought was 2nt and thought it was obvious as well.

Not opening this 12 count in 2nd seat (or in any seat) is just asking for more troubles later in the auction, especially with light 3rd seat openings.

[neilkaz]

I cannot believe this is actually getting a debate. 2NT -- WTP should be about universal.

We don't alway agree, Ken, but here we do. This is a weak NT hand and the negX doesn't guarantee clubs.

[Codo]

We had been there before, so yes the double OF COURSE :) promised spades and clubs.

 

This is like a religion: Many belive that a double just promises a major, others that it promises the unbid suits. The belives are strong, the facts remote.

 

I personally think, it promises the unbid suits or a way to bid the hand after any possible rebid from partner, including even 4 Club in this case.

 

There is no statistical knowledge which way is better, so we all just state our opinion or the opinion of the experts we follow.

[the hog]

I have one of the suits that partner asked me to bid, so I will bid it - 3C. That is my punishment for opening this hand.

 

There was a time when this garbage would not have been opened and the auction might have been more sane.

Eh? This is a perfectly reasonable opening. I guess if you learned when disnosaurs ruled the earth you might have passed.

Fwiw bid 2NT now.

[mcphee]

Very nice, I have opened the bidding and now I am faced with a horrible choice of 2N or 3C, it serves me right. I will opt for 3C praying partner will forgive me for what ever calamity takes place. I have zero interest to encourage partner to try 3N at this time.

 

You open these hands and poor partners end up feeling silly for trying to compete later in the game, the become concerned about having no shot for a game when they have an opening bid themselves!

[kenrexford]

Very nice, I have opened the bidding and now I am faced with a horrible choice of 2N or 3C, it serves me right. I will opt for 3C praying partner will forgive me for what ever calamity takes place. I have zero interest to encourage partner to try 3N at this time.

 

You open these hands and poor partners end up feeling silly for trying to compete later in the game, the become concerned about having no shot for a game when they have an opening bid themselves!

Huh?

 

So pessimistic.

[ASkolnick]

I bid 3C. I agree with CODO it promises 2 places to play, usually that means the major and either support or the other minor. So, if I bid 3C, he should have either

 

S&C,S&D or S&S and a weak hand.

[Finch]

We had been there before, so yes the double OF COURSE :D promised spades and clubs.

 

This is like a religion: Many belive that a double just promises a major, others that it promises the unbid suits. The belives are strong, the facts remote.

 

I personally think, it promises the unbid suits or a way to bid the hand after any possible rebid from partner, including even 4 Club in this case.

 

There is no statistical knowledge which way is better, so we all just state our opinion or the opinion of the experts we follow.

I really think you are wrong here.

 

After a 1-level overcall, it is playable, although now uncommon, to play that the double promises both unbid suits (or the ability to control the auction).

 

After a jump overcall, it's not playable to have double as promising the unbid suits. What are you supposed to do with a 4=3=3=3 distribution with a 13-count and no heart stop? Pass? Bid 2S? It's hands like that for which take-out doubles were invented.

[Finch]

There is probably much less agreement about whether 1C-(1D)-DBL and 1D-(2C)-DBL show both majors.

That's pretty universal among experts too (ignorring the ones who use special methods of course.) The first one promises both majors since it's very easy to bid your major with just one. The second promises only one major, but you have to be prepared if partner bids the one you don't have which presumably means support for partner.

I discovered recently that there is a fairly strong minority who, playing a 5CM system, like to play 1C (1D) DBL as denying a major (i.e. usually with club support, or rarely 3343 with no stop) on the grounds that with a major they can just bid it, but they look stupid raising clubs when 1NT is the best spot.

 

But even more recently than that, the trend now seems to be to the 'special method' where x shows 4+ hearts, 1H shows 4+ spades, and 1S shows the "unbiddable" hand. Hey, even I play that in one partnerships, it must be getting widespread...

 

Fully agree on the second: 1D (2C) DBL basically shows two places to play, typically a major + (other major or partner's suit). It's a bit more dangerous having NT as an option, because partner is usually entitled to jump to 4M over the double. So 1D (2C) x (P); 4H (P) 5D is simply a contract correction, not a cue for hearts - it implies spades, but with both majors opener would have cued clubs.