bidding after preempt

[precpj]

Hand 1:

rho deals and opens 3S; hoding JT AX AKQJ986 84 , your bid ?

 

Hand2

 

LHO deals 3D P P ? hoding AKQJT32 J54 VOID AKT, your bid ?

 

Many thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts

 

Precpj

[P_Marlowe]

#1 5D, since I cannt bid 4D.

 

May or may not make.

 

Double is no option, the only thing I may consider

is, to pass instead of bidding 5D.

 

#2 4S.

 

Now double followed by 4S is a lot more attractive,

given that I have only looser, or 9 winners.

And since I am in the passout seat, the hand is way

too strong, so I have already convinced myself to go

via double.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ArtK78]

Agree with Marlowe.

 

On the first one, I can bid 4♦, since I play it as natural. But I would bid 5♦ anyway. The winning bid might be 3NT, and I have seen the bid made on hands like this one.

 

The second hand is more of a problem. One would like to double and then bid 4♠. The hand is certainly strong enough for it. However, if you double, there is a possibility (and not a small one, considering that you are void in diamonds) that partner might pass your double. And you certainly do not want that to happen.

 

So, you have to decide whether to risk doubling so that you can then bid 4♠, bid 4♠ directly (an underbid), or do something else. The only "something else" that I can think of is bidding 4♦ and pulling 4♥ to 4♠. But, depending on your agreement about the meaning of 4♦, that could lead to much confusion.

 

So there is no perfect answer for the second hand. The practical answer is bid 4♠.

[whereagles]

1. A very confident 3NT because it's our most likely game. I'll trust luck to bring this home. 5♦ requires more than luck: it requires a load of points in pard.

 

2. 4♠ seems fair, on grounds that it's too high a level to gauge a slam confidently.

[655321]

1) Double, hoping for 3NT from partner. Will bid 5♦ over 4♥.

 

2) 4♠

[jdonn]

1. 3NT, which is where I want to be if you tell me partner's spades are 9xx or better.

2. 4♠ since there is nothing better to do. Certainly doubling is no option, so if you think a hand is too good for 4♠ you bid 5♠ or 6♠. Personally I don't seem to hold such hands though.

[effervesce]

First hand I bid 4♦ - 5♦ is too much given you need quite a bit from partner. I don't like 3NT. If partner has Kx or Qx you wont be getting a trick in spades - you need either Qxx or the spade ace.

 

Second hand I double - I don't mind partner jumping to 4♥ or 5♣ - in fact I'd love it if partner jumped to 4♥. The hand is simply too good for an immediate 4♠. If partner jumps to 4♥ it makes it so much more likely that partner holds KQxxx of hearts for example, and simplifies exploring slam since you can keycard for hearts. If partner responds 4♣, I'll simply bid 4♠. When you have spades, it makes it alot more safer in this case and many other situations to double then bid since you have the boss suit.

[mikeh]

1. 4♦. Yes, 3N may hit a home run, and it is a sexy bid, but it's too sexy for me.

 

2. 4♠. If you are ever tempted to bid 4♠ with KQJ10xxxx xx xx x, this hand is the reason you don't... a jump overcall of a preempt is a monster hand.. the difference between double and then spades and just spades is flexibility: double then spades suggests the ability to play in another suit or suits opposite suitable hands.. just spades says spades are trump and I have a big hand.

 

This would be a good hand to use 4♦ then 4♠ to show this kind of hand, but I wouldn't risk making it up at the table.

[jdonn]

First hand I bid 4♦ - 5♦ is too much given you need quite a bit from partner. I don't like 3NT. If partner has Kx or Qx you wont be getting a trick in spades - you need either Qxx or the spade ace.

Or most three or four card spade holdings. That's why I mentioned 9xx, since odds are the preempter won't have AKQxxxx, that would suggest a singleton A K or Q may be on lead. It will sure work a lot more than just the times partner has the ace anyway.

[ochinko]

1. 4♦ but I don't mind 3NT if it works.

 

2. 4♠

 

 

I never double with a one-suiter hand. Double and a new suit is used only over suit openings at level 1. Over weak 2's and preempts double implies at least two suits.

[maggieb]

1) 4♦, but 3N is fine to me. I don't like double. If partner passes, we are unhappy. Partner will also often just bid 4♣ with a spade stopper, and bidding 4♦ over this is a much worse description of the hand.

2) 4♠ of course.

[skjaeran]

1. 3NT, hoping for a stopper opposite or a blocked suit.

2. 4♠. Double is insane (you don't want partner to sit) and not strong enough to bid more than 4♠.

[awm]

1. 4♦. Yes, there are some hands where 3NT makes. But there are also some hands where spades or clubs is wide open, or where partner has ♠Kx and we can only make notrump from his side. And there are some hands where we have slam in diamonds that we don't find if I bid 3NT. There are a fair number of hands where 4NT from partner's side makes but 3NT from my side doesn't (either because of a positional stopper or because LHO finds the club lead and RHO doesn't) to go with the hands where notrump is simply not the right game.

 

I'll also note that balancing 3NT over 3♠-P-P is a lot more tempting than bidding 3NT in direct chair, because a positional stopper in partner's hand will be protecting, preempter is unlikely to find the magic club lead if he needs it to beat the contract, and preempter's partner's non-raise makes it more likely my partner has the spade length needed to create blockage and/or a slow stop.

 

2. 4♠; this hand is almost ideal for the bid.

[jdonn]

Adam you use the word "some" very freely. Some somes are bigger than some other somes!

[awm]

Adam you use the word "some" very freely. Some somes are bigger than some other somes!

Well I'd look at it this way. Partner's expected number of spades is about 2.

 

(1) If partner has 0-1♠, bidding 3NT is normally a disaster. Partner passes, LHO has an easy spade lead with three of them, we have nothing resembling a stopper unless partner has singleton ace. We could easily have been making game or slam in diamonds and would've found at least game after we bid 4♦ and LHO bids 4♠.

 

(2) If partner has 2♠, then we will very rarely have a spade control. Even if partner has Kx, the spade preempter will often have ace-queen (he is missing KJT after all). Basically we are hoping for partner with Ax in this case; if he has two random spades of the eleven we cannot see then his odds of having ace are about 18%, but in fact it's even less than this because preempter tends to have some honors in the suit.

 

(3) If partner has 3♠ or 4♠ then bidding 3NT could win. But if the three-card holding is three small LHO may lead singleton king or queen and have RHO overtake. It is also possible that LHO decides to lead something other than a spade if he has a small singleton spade. So if a club lead (or even heart lead) kills 3NT, LHO could well find it.

 

Again, the situation is very different if the auction were 3♠-P-P to me. Now partner's expected number of spades is actually quite a bit higher than 2, because RHO would often have raised if he held three or more spades. Also, with the preempter on lead certain holdings like singleton king in partner's hand or Kx in partner's hand or even xxx in partner's hand are more likely to stand up (if preempter leads low from AQ9xxxx rather than ace, for example). And if setting the contract requires a round suit lead, preempter is not really that likely to find it.