Strong 2Clubs Open with STEPS Response

[fan13027]

[hv=d=w&v=n&w=s8543hat753dq8c85&e=sk2hk4dak52cakq76]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

The bidding has proceeded ...

 

West - Pass

North - Pass

East - 2♣

South - Pass

West - 2♥ -- This is a STEPS response indicating 4-6 HCP and says nothing about distribution

North - Pass

East - ?

[kenrexford]

2NT. If ytou decide to open this 2♣, then treat this as balanced.

[effervesce]

2NT looks normal.

[pclayton]

2N.

 

Not that I really care, but I just wanted to post to complain about the methods.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

3NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I voted to fast, 2NT is certainly better,

since it allowes to look for a possible heart

fit.

[kenrexford]

Hi,

 

3NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I voted to fast, 2NT is certainly better,

since it allowes to look for a possible heart

fit.

Huh?

 

I would think that 3NT would allow us to search for a possible heart fit also, because partner, who would need six hearts to really care, could bid 4♦ Texas.

[jdonn]

Hi,

 

3NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I voted to fast, 2NT is certainly better,

since it allowes to look for a possible heart

fit.

Huh?

 

I would think that 3NT would allow us to search for a possible heart fit also, because partner, who would need six hearts to really care, could bid 4♦ Texas.

Why wouldn't he care with 5 hearts? Or for that matter 4 hearts?

[helene_t]

Why wouldn't he care with 5 hearts? Or for that matter 4 hearts?

He would after 2N but not after 3N, and with this hand it doesn't matter.

 

I think 3N should show something else, though. Balanced hands will normally bid 2N after a positive response, and 3N defined as exactly 22(54) is silly.

[jdonn]

It all depends what you think 3NT shows, but I certainly don't see how 2NT could hurt.

[TylerE]

Just to expand upon what some others have mentioned, HCP steps is REALLY REALLY bad. Over a strong 2♣, and ace is worth far more than 2 queens. If you really want to play something along these lines, play something such as the following.

 

Note: Controls are: Ace = 2, King = 1. Queens and jacks don't count at all.

 

2♦: 0 or 1 Controls

2♥: 2 controls (1 Ace or 2 Kings)

2♠: 3 controls, specifically an Ace and a King

2NT: 3 controls, specifically three Kings

3♣: 4 controls

3♦: 5 controls

3♥: 6 controls

 

Any response beyond 2NT is extremely rare.

[pclayton]

Just to expand upon what some others have mentioned, HCP steps is REALLY REALLY bad. Over a strong 2♣, and ace is worth far more than 2 queens. If you really want to play something along these lines, play something such as the following.

 

Note: Controls are: Ace = 2, King = 1. Queens and jacks don't count at all.

 

2♦: 0 or 1 Controls

2♥: 2 controls (1 Ace or 2 Kings)

2♠: 3 controls, specifically an Ace and a King

2NT: 3 controls, specifically three Kings

3♣: 4 controls

3♦: 5 controls

3♥: 6 controls

 

Any response beyond 2NT is extremely rare.

Better than HCP steps, but certainly not 'best'. Both methods put the cart (knowledge of controls) before the horse (finding our trump fit). Why?

 

1. Control responses frequently 'wrong side' the contract.

 

2. In order to bid our suits, Opener has to go to the three level. Horribly inefficient.

 

3. The opponents get a free double of responder's artificial bid.

 

If you are going to play controls, at least specify that 4N by opener asks for specific queens. Also, a jump shift by opener should not be a solid suit but rather an asking bid.

[neilkaz]

Just to expand upon what some others have mentioned, HCP steps is REALLY REALLY bad. Over a strong 2♣, and ace is worth far more than 2 queens. If you really want to play something along these lines, play something such as the following.

 

Note: Controls are: Ace = 2, King = 1. Queens and jacks don't count at all.

 

2♦: 0 or 1 Controls

2♥: 2 controls (1 Ace or 2 Kings)

2♠: 3 controls, specifically an Ace and a King

2NT: 3 controls, specifically three Kings

3♣: 4 controls

3♦: 5 controls

3♥: 6 controls

 

Any response beyond 2NT is extremely rare.

Better than HCP steps, but certainly not 'best'. Both methods put the cart (knowledge of controls) before the horse (finding our trump fit). Why?

 

1. Control responses frequently 'wrong side' the contract.

 

2. In order to bid our suits, Opener has to go to the three level. Horribly inefficient.

 

3. The opponents get a free double of responder's artificial bid.

 

If you are going to play controls, at least specify that 4N by opener asks for specific queens. Also, a jump shift by opener should not be a solid suit but rather an asking bid.

So Phil...what's your preferred response system to 2♣ ? Please give some specifics if you have time.

[neilkaz]

Don't all laugh at me when I tell you that I have quite a bit of experience playing steps with several live partners 20 years ago and online with a couple partners and some pickups today since I trust them more to play something they are familiar with and if they are comfortable we play better.

 

The bidding here is just the same as if using controls (clearly better than steps) or using 2♦ waiting or 2♦ semi-positive (2♥ bust).

 

Opener is still unsure what the best game is since PD could hold anything for his 4-6 HCP. Therefore opener rebids 2NT and bidding proceeds just the same as if opener had opened 2NT except that he is now showing 22-24 rather than 20-21.

 

So, as responder after 2NT I'd transfer to ♥ (transfers still on inspite of the responding 2♥..KISS) rather than trying to find a 4-4 ♠ fit with my weak ♠ which may cause confusion as to how many ♥ I have (does my B/I PD know or play Puppet or Smolen and how can I show him 5♥ after Stayman?)

 

Anyhow...and after steps which now lets opener know that his combined assets are 26-28 HCP, he shouldn't envision slam. It could happen if responder has a fitting freak, but very unlikely. Opener should bid 2NT on the way to the likely 3NT.

If opener rebids 3NT he is showing 25-27.

 

Here's what Karen Walker has to say about strong 2♣ and this may be of interest to B/I http://www.prairienet.org/bridge/b_2c.htm

 

.. neilkaz ..

[pclayton]

So Phil...what's your preferred response system to 2♣ ? Please give some specifics if you have time.

With casual pards, I just keep it pretty simple - 2♦ GF, 2♥ neg, 2N = hearts.

 

With more serious pards I like the 2♦ and 2♥ as the same, except 2♠ = bal 8-10 (be like Fred). 2N through 3♥ are all positives, but in the next higher suit.

[oldman5757]

Just to expand upon what some others have mentioned, HCP steps is REALLY REALLY bad. Over a strong 2♣, and ace is worth far more than 2 queens. If you really want to play something along these lines, play something such as the following.

 

Note: Controls are: Ace = 2, King = 1. Queens and jacks don't count at all.

 

2♦: 0 or 1 Controls

2♥: 2 controls (1 Ace or 2 Kings)

2♠: 3 controls, specifically an Ace and a King

2NT: 3 controls, specifically three Kings

3♣: 4 controls

3♦: 5 controls

3♥: 6 controls

 

Any response beyond 2NT is extremely rare.

 

I agree that steps are really bad. Playing controls over 2♣ is, I suppose, not an expert method, but I think it's a pretty solid method for intermediates, and is much better than playing some of the other more haphazard methods of responding to 2♣.

 

If you decide to play controls, however, you can't open just any old big hand 2♣. You bid 2♣ when you want to know about controls in P's hand and/or you are prepared to handle partner's control-showing response. This means that you open some hands 2♣ that others won't (which can be good), and you open some hands at the one level or with a somewhat off-shape 2NT (maybe not so good).

 

I suggest two variations on the control showing scheme above: (1.) 2NT shows three kings or an AK in the same suit, and (2.) 3♣ shows 4 or more controls. :rolleyes:

[fan13027]

... I have quite a bit of experience playing steps with several live partners 20 years ago ...

Thanks for all the responses! I encountered this hand playing with my regular partner/mentor (who happens to be my 84 year old father) and although I have learned much from him, I DO FEEL like sometimes I am playing with a partner from "20 years ago".

 

I was West and partner decided to go directly to 3NT on the rebid. I guess it didn't make any difference, in this case, as there was no slam in the hand. But nonetheless I was a bit disappointed that he didn't take the time to at least explore for a club fit or to allow me to indicate my hearts. Without the direct route to 3NT there would have been enough bidding room to explore a bit and still safely stop at the inevitable 3NT contract.

[fan13027]

With more serious pards I like the 2♦ and 2♥ as the same, except 2♠ = bal 8-10 (be like Fred). 2N through 3♥ are all positives, but in the next higher suit.

Phil, this looks very interesting (and likely more effective than what we are currently using). Is there a name for this convention so that I can do some research and read more about it?

 

Or, if not, could you please give more detail about the promised minimum HCP and suit length (I am assuming 5+ for majors and 6+ for minors) for the 2NT thru 3♥ responses?

[pclayton]

Phil, this looks very interesting (and likely more effective than what we are currently using). Is there a name for this convention so that I can do some research and read more about it?

 

Or, if not, could you please give more detail about the promised minimum HCP and suit length (I am assuming 5+ for majors and 6+ for minors) for the 2NT thru 3♥ responses?

Sure :)

 

-- Most define a 2♥ minimum as no Ace, King or two queens. A 2N response is definitely non-forcing by Opener. If opener bids a new suit you should be in a force through 3 of a major or 4 of a minor.

 

--2♠ is 8-10 balanced (but I think you can plug in a weak five card minor too). We play something fancy here; If opener bids 2N, responder bids transfers to a five card minor or a four card major, so:

 

3♣ = five diamonds

3♦ = four hearts (and maybe four spades)

3♥ = four spades

3♠ = five clubs

3N = 4-4 in the minors or 4 minor(333).

 

If Opener 'accepts' the transfer it sets trump and requests a cue bid.

 

--2N through 3♥ are positives in the next suit higher. They promise at least six cards and two of the top three honors or a seven card suit headed by one honor). No outside strength is promised. If Opener 'accepts' the transfer it requests a cue bid. One of our posters (Gerben? Winston? had an article in the Bridge World on this I think).

 

--3♠ shows a solid suit (AKQxxx or better).

 

--2♦ is any other hand that doesn't fit into any of the above slots, but its usually a 4-7 point hand (based on frequency).

 

You may call the convention "Phil", except the 2♠ response which should be called "Fred" :)

 

There isn't a name for any of this I don't think.

[keylime]

Similar to Phil's concept, but 3S becomes both minors, 3NT becomes both majors, G/F. If I got a solid suit, opener should be thanking us!

[blackshoe]

Romex currently uses these responses to 2♣:

 

2♦ 0-1 control

2♥ 2 controls

2♠ 3 controls

2NT 4 controls

3♣ 5 (or more - highly unlikely!) controls

3♦ a weak two bid in hearts, gf

3♥ a weak two bid in spade, gf

3♠ undefined

3NT unspecified solid six or seven card suit, nothing outside

4♣ Gerber

4♦ broken seven card heart suit in a hand worth only a 2♦ response

4♥ broken seven card spade suit in a hand worth only a 2♦ response

4♠ also undefined

 

Follow ons are also fairly well defined, but I don't have time to go into them now.

 

NB: the 2♣ opening in Romex shows a gf hand (3 or fewer losers) in any suit except diamonds (may be 2 suited) with at least six controls or a balanced hand with 23-24 HCP and 8 controls. Depending which variant you play, stronger balanced hands may be included.

[stegenborg]

Hi

 

I just read "Modern Constructive Bidding" by Marshall Miles.

 

He propose these answers to 2♣ :

2♦ weak

2♥ positive, reasonably balanced or only bad suits

2NT positive with ♥

2♠, 3♣, 3♦ natural positive

 

The idea is that you can use Kokish over after 2♣ - 2♦.

So is this sequence opener shows 25-27 balanced:

2♣-2♦

2♥-2♠

2NT

 

Here 2♥ is either ♥ or strong balanced and 2♠ is a forced relay.

 

If responder have a positive hand you can just bid 2NT with a balanced hand and clarify you strength later (hopefully).

 

Miles define a positive response to 2♣ as a hand with at least A+Q or K+K or 8 HCP without A or K (if my memory is correct).

 

I think this scheme sound better than 2♦ = GF and 2♥ = weak.

 

I think this might be a slight improvement, but have not played it:

2♦ weak

2♥ positive, reasonably balanced or only bad suits

2♠ positive with ♥

2NT positive with ♠

 

Then the strong hand can be declarer when responder have a major suit.

 

Kristian

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

3NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I voted to fast, 2NT is certainly better,

since it allowes to look for a possible heart

fit.

Huh?

 

I would think that 3NT would allow us to search for a possible heart fit also, because partner, who would need six hearts to really care, could bid 4♦ Texas.

Ok.

 

It makes certainly a lot of sense, to play system on,

even after a 3NT bid, but since we are in the B/I section,

I suggest to keep it simple.

 

And saying that besides the strength all bids

after the start

 

2C - 2H

2NT - ...

 

are similiar to the bids after the start

 

2NT - ???

 

is much simpler, than saying the that this is also true with the

3NT, because now we would need to explain, when a 4NT bid

is nat and when it is key cards.

 

Of course the heart fit does not matter with the given hand,

but maybe, partner has 4-4 in the minors?

And now bidding 2NT instead of 3NT gives partner more room,

sure not likely but possible.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe