hrothgar Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 if you add to the price of a car, how will that affect car sales? i mean, the big 3 are already bleeding money, begging for a bailout... i can't see how increasing the cost of the vehicle helps anything it looks to me as if the desire for a carbon tax keeps people from looking at the bigger picture (how it will affect all of us)... now i'd be all for *cutting* taxes (even no corporate tax) on companies that had safe and reliable alternative sources of power... give companies an incentive to invest and produce In a shocking move, Jimmy comes out in favor of tax cuts... Seriously, is there any time that you aren't in favor of tax cuts? This comment is (essentially) meaningless noise. Can you (or Mike) give ANY examples where you think increases taxes is the right policy decision? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 All this talk of car companies being forced or given 10K to sell a car the government prefers over what the customer wants makes me nervous. GM F and C are not going broke because they refuse to sell green cars or prefer to pollute the planet. Just take a look at the VOLT which GM has wasted so much money on and they will sell at a loss. edit: I am in favor of raising taxes if it helps rather than hurts job creation or growing GDP. I prefer to increase tax revenue rather than tax rates if that is an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 All this talk of car companies being forced or given 10K to sell a car the government prefers over what the customer wants makes me nervous. GM F and C are not going broke because they refuse to sell green cars or prefer to pollute the planet. Just take a look at the VOLT which GM has wasted so much money on and they will sell at a loss. edit: I am in favor of raising taxes if it helps rather than hurts job creation or growing GDP. I prefer to increase tax revenue rather than tax rates if that is an option. Pablum and the laffer curve... Try to provide some specifics. Don't you work in some field valguely related to accouting / finance? You must be able to come up with something specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I thought I posted this before and thought it was worth further discussion. I do not know how it works in full detail. I have no issue on raising many types of taxes or usage fees or whatever you prefer to call them. OTOH I do worry if raising a tax causes job loses or reduces the growth rates of GDP. I do think the carbon tax discussion is interesting and the posts thoughtful. http://www.carbontax.org/introduction/#no-tax-increase "A carbon tax should be revenue-neutral. Revenue-neutral means that little if any of the tax revenues raised by taxing carbon emissions would be retained by government. The vast majority of the revenues would be returned to the public, with, perhaps, a very small amount utilized to mitigate the otherwise negative impacts of carbon taxes on low-income energy users. Two primary return approaches are being discussed. One would rebate the revenues directly through regular (e.g., monthly) equal dividends to all U.S. residents. In effect, every resident would receive equal, identical slices of the total revenue pie. Just such a program has operated in Alaska for three decades, providing residents with annual dividends from the state’s North Slope oil revenues. In the other method, each dollar of carbon tax revenue would trigger a dollar’s worth of reduction in existing taxes such as the federal payroll tax or state sales taxes. As carbon-tax revenues are phased in (with the tax rates rising gradually but steadily, to allow a smooth transition), existing taxes will be phased out and, in some cases, eliminated. This “tax-shift” approach, while less direct than the dividend method, would also ensure that the carbon tax is revenue-neutral. Each individual’s receipt of dividends or tax-shifts would be independent of the taxes he or she pays. That is, no person’s benefits would be tied to his or her energy consumption and carbon tax “bill.” This separation of benefits from payments preserves the incentives created by a carbon tax to reduce use of fossil fuels and emit less CO2 into the atmosphere. Of course, it would be extraordinarily cumbersome to calculate an individual’s full carbon tax bill since to some extent the carbon tax would be passed through as part of the costs of various goods and services. Revenue-neutrality not only protects the poor (see next section), it's also politically savvy since it blunts the "No New Taxes" demand that has held sway in American politics for over a generation. Returning the carbon tax revenues to the public would also make it easier to raise the tax level over time, a point made nicely by McGill University professor Christopher Ragan in a 2008 Montreal Gazette op-ed." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobowolf Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 In a shocking move, Jimmy comes out in favor of tax cuts... Seriously, is there any time that you aren't in favor of tax cuts? This comment is (essentially) meaningless noise. Yeah, if you can't be inconsistent, at least come down on the right side of the issue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 In a shocking move, Jimmy comes out in favor of tax cuts... Seriously, is there any time that you aren't in favor of tax cuts? This comment is (essentially) meaningless noise. Yeah, if you can't be inconsistent, at least come down on the right side of the issue! Right, raising some taxes and lowering others is inconsistent... I have to say, Wolf, your one-line replies don't quite measure up to the general level of your watercooler contributions :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 it looks to me as if the desire for a carbon tax keeps people from looking at the bigger picture (how it will affect all of us) I thought the bigger picture that affects all of us was EARTH. My mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I have to say, Wolf, your one-line replies don't quite measure up to the general level of your watercooler contributions :P Go easy on him, he is a liberal after all! Wait, either that or he just likes posting only to disagree with someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobowolf Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 In a shocking move, Jimmy comes out in favor of tax cuts... Seriously, is there any time that you aren't in favor of tax cuts? This comment is (essentially) meaningless noise. Yeah, if you can't be inconsistent, at least come down on the right side of the issue! Right, raising some taxes and lowering others is inconsistent... I have to say, Wolf, your one-line replies don't quite measure up to the general level of your watercooler contributions :P lol...uhhh thanks?! I thought the implication (and complaint) was that he's not in favor of raising any taxes, ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobowolf Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I have to say, Wolf, your one-line replies don't quite measure up to the general level of your watercooler contributions :P Go easy on him, he is a liberal after all! Wait, either that or he just likes posting only to disagree with someone. As Polonius said to Laertes, "Neither a liberal nor a conservative be." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I have to say, Wolf, your one-line replies don't quite measure up to the general level of your watercooler contributions :P Go easy on him, he is a liberal after all! Wait, either that or he just likes posting only to disagree with someone. As Polonius said to Laertes, "Neither a liberal nor a conservative be." I can suck in my gut, flex my biceps, and try to convince all of you that I am Bruce Lee. But that doesn't make it true... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobowolf Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I have to say, Wolf, your one-line replies don't quite measure up to the general level of your watercooler contributions :P Go easy on him, he is a liberal after all! Wait, either that or he just likes posting only to disagree with someone. As Polonius said to Laertes, "Neither a liberal nor a conservative be." I can suck in my gut, flex my biceps, and try to convince all of you that I am Bruce Lee. But that doesn't make it true... Fortunately, I can pass for either a liberal or a conservative, depending on my company...all I have to do is hang out with conservatives or liberals, respectively. Nowadays, both sides do seem to have the same "If you're not one of us, you're one of them" mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 That's it. Take a message board, use it to argue for virtually nothing but conservative principles ever, specifically making it a point to disagree with a liberal post at every chance, then blame the partisan mentality of everyone else when you get labeled! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobowolf Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 It's a liberal board. Let's have all the Water Cooler regulars check in for Obama or McCain...what do you think we're going to do, approximate 52-46? REMOTELY approximate it? I'm not "blaming" anyone; I'm clarifying. I have conservative friends, and they're all against gay marriage, they're largely against abortion, most of them are Christian, and I assure you, they'd find the notion of my being a conservative as amusing as you'd find the notion of my being a liberal. One decent litmus test...of people whose votes I know, every liberal I know voted for Obama, and every conservative I know voted for McCain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I have conservative friends, and they're all against gay marriage, they're largely against abortion, most of them are Christian, and I assure you, they'd find the notion of my being a conservative as amusing as you'd find the notion of my being a liberal. Right I have been over that with you before. You do not commentate on Fox News so you are part of the liberal media elite. Let me clarify and unsarcastify. Pardon me if I don't take their opinions very seriously... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobowolf Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I have conservative friends, and they're all against gay marriage, they're largely against abortion, most of them are Christian, and I assure you, they'd find the notion of my being a conservative as amusing as you'd find the notion of my being a liberal. Right I have been over that with you before. You do not commentate on Fox News so you are part of the liberal media elite. Let me clarify and unsarcastify. Pardon me if I don't take their opinions very seriously... Yes, and as for my liberal friends (and non-friends), I don't support affirmative action or illegal immigration, so I'm a neocon. Pardon me if I don't take any partisan position on either side very seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I have never used that word, my example was something I have heard used many many times. Sarcasm without truth is like Chuck Norris without a fist in his beard. Or something like that. In the end alll I can tell you is if it does this like one of these then it's probably something like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobowolf Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I have never used that word, my example was something I have heard used many many times. Sarcasm without truth is like Chuck Norris without a fist in his beard. Or something like that. In the end alll I can tell you is if it does this like one of these then it's probably something like this. You may have never used it (and I wasn't suggesting that you did), but like "liberal media elite," I'm sure it's a term you've heard many times. In the end, all I can tell you is that around groups that are largely liberal, I sound like a conservative; in groups that are largely conservative, I sound like a liberal; and in groups that are a balanced mix, I sound pretty close to the middle. As you've noted, I do have a propensity to voice disagreement more than agreement. I like playing devil's advocate. Undoubtedly, this magnifies the effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 It's a liberal board. Let's have all the Water Cooler regulars check in for Obama or McCain...what do you think we're going to do, approximate 52-46? REMOTELY approximate it? There are enough conservatives posting in the watercooler (more than 777 of them, in fact), they just seem to be unable to express a coherent thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 like "liberal media elite," I'm sure it's a term you've heard many times. Not at all, I would say 5% as often. In fact I had to go to dictionary.com just to confirm to myself what I believed it meant. So either I'm oblivious or you're striking out. BTW along the lines of what cherdano notes, I would say the liberal, conservative water cooler ratio is pretty near the actual ratio in the country. You underestimate your own numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobowolf Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 like "liberal media elite," I'm sure it's a term you've heard many times. You underestimate your own numbers. I do? I don't recall opining as to how many small-L libertarians there are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 In the end, all I can tell you is that around groups that are largely liberal, I sound like a conservative; in groups that are largely conservative, I sound like a liberal; and in groups that are a balanced mix, I sound pretty close to the middle. Why do you keep discussing social issues with conservatives and economic issues with liberals?(Only slightly in jest.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 if you add to the price of a car, how will that affect car sales? i mean, the big 3 are already bleeding money, begging for a bailout... i can't see how increasing the cost of the vehicle helps anything it looks to me as if the desire for a carbon tax keeps people from looking at the bigger picture (how it will affect all of us)... now i'd be all for *cutting* taxes (even no corporate tax) on companies that had safe and reliable alternative sources of power... give companies an incentive to invest and produce In a shocking move, Jimmy comes out in favor of tax cuts... Seriously, is there any time that you aren't in favor of tax cuts? This comment is (essentially) meaningless noise. Can you (or Mike) give ANY examples where you think increases taxes is the right policy decision? equally shocking, you come out in favor of tax hikes, especially on businesses... in any case, i can't think of very many tax hikes i'd be in favor of... i especially think the progressive income tax (actually, almost any income tax) is extremely unfair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 it looks to me as if the desire for a carbon tax keeps people from looking at the bigger picture (how it will affect all of us) I thought the bigger picture that affects all of us was EARTH. My mistake. well look on the bright side - it won't be your last Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 it looks to me as if the desire for a carbon tax keeps people from looking at the bigger picture (how it will affect all of us) I thought the bigger picture that affects all of us was EARTH. My mistake. well look on the bright side - it won't be your last Indeed. But I wonder, how are you going to print all that wealth without trees? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.