after a critisism

[sceptic]

I saw someone mention that the B/I forum has a lot of things explained that are over the top for genuine beginners, I happen to agree with this, I have posted hands here that have been ripped apart (possibly well deserved, but I could save myself a lot of embarassment by not posting them) , because someone has asked me why I bid badly and I really do not consider my self to be remotely qualified to teach someone, so I post the hands here.

 

would or could it be possible to start a beginners thread (as opposed to one that has intermediates involved as the difference in a true beginner and a good intermediate is or can be huge)

 

I realise that some people can't help answering what is best expert practie or modern thinking. BUT, I think some of the answers are actually way over the top on occasions, perhaps, there would be more beginners posting asking for help if a more basic thread was available.

 

It would be good to see some of the teachers that frequent the BIL being able to post answers here without feeling that they are getting slated down by teaching non expert standards and styles

 

Just a thought and in no way critising any poster that does post here or does help others, some people are just not ready to take the leap into anything but the basics and it would be nice to see beginners take a more active part in some of the discussions or even trying some of the problems that are posted occasionally, some avoid the forums because it is way over thier heads and against anything they are being taught to learn the basics (the last statement is based on conversations with people that have asked me to teach them because they "MISGUIDEDLY" think I am a good player. (something, I do not claim to be)

[P_Marlowe]

... some avoid the forums because it is way over thier heads and against anything they are being taught to learn the basics (the last statement is based on conversations with people that have asked me to teach them because they "MISGUIDEDLY" think I am a good player. (something, I do not claim to be)

A forum can never teach the basics, because the posts are too unstructured.

If people want to learn the basics, they should join a course or read books,

it will be a lot more consistent.

 

Also asking a player they trust is a good thing, so even if they "MISGUIDEDLY" think, that you are a good player, asking you is way better than asking their question on the forum.

 

Why?

 

Because they will only get one view point, they dont need to decide which view point is better, which can be quite hard, and add to this, that quite often there is

no clear answer, you can go right or left

=> The forum tells them to go this way, their original source or their enviroment tells them different, and both ways are quite often fine.

 

 

 

But if YOU teach, you can ask, if you are uncertain, if the things you intend to teach are mainstream or not, that was what I did, ... I know, that I am quite

often alone, and that is ok, but one should be vary to teach things, which are extremly uncommon, but if it is common, I would teaching it, even if it is minority view, as long as the minority is big enough, since in this case, I am hopefully

familar with most of the consequences.

 

Another thing is, you may be able to name posters, whose answers you think are

suitable for beginners, and you may also name posters, whose post should be

ignored, ...

This may make the entry in a forum a lot easier.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: As an example, just look at the following link

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=28269

 

There wont be a real consens about what to do, maybe in the thread, but the consens will be because the forum is heavily frequented by NA players, and

certain view points wont be represented adequte.

 

Now assume a beginner is living in Great Britain, in a place, where they play

Acol, than it will be contrary to what they play.

Is what they play complete B...t? No, it may be oldfashinoed, but you play that

way. They need an authority they know and trust, who says, the way you play

is fine, just ignore certain answers, which tell you different.

[helene_t]

A beginner is someone who at best knows Stayman. I think we are talking about intermediate or even advanced players whose threads get hijacked by experts (or by wannabe experts such as myself, lol).

 

I don't think changing the title of the forum will help. As soon as somebody fails to notice which forum it is posted in, he will hijack the thread. Same thing happens with the SAYC 2/1 forum.

[pclayton]

A beginner is someone who at best knows Stayman. I think we are talking about intermediate or even advanced players whose threads get hijacked by experts (or by wannabe experts such as myself, lol).

 

I don't think changing the title of the forum will help. As soon as somebody fails to notice which forum it is posted in, he will hijack the thread. Same thing happens with the SAYC 2/1 forum.

Long Rant Follows:

 

____________________

 

 

At bridge (as well as other activities), we tend to overstate our abilities. Normal stuff; not anything new here. Ego has a capital "E".

 

It's quite possible that this unspoken exchange has taken place on the Forums before:

 

Player A/E:

 

"An intermediate isn't complete without knowing a viper squeeze with an avoidance theme. It came up at the table, so lets post the hand and see if the Billies can figure this out".

 

Player B/I

 

"I'm an intermediate (not a novice, and certainly not a beginner)".

 

"I'll take a look at the new hands posted in the BI"

 

"Oh look at this one. I've heard some good players talking about squeezes, so I'll check this out".

 

Naturally he doesn't solve the hand. Even after the answer is posted, he can't figure out the six card ending (because its complicated). What is his reaction going to be? Is it, "wow, I guess I really need to work on my game, since I'm not really an intermediate". Its more like he'll say, "Oh well, I guess I just don't have an aptitude for this game after all. I'll just pick up this crossword. Sudoku looks interesting, maybe I'll try that".

 

------------------------------

 

Labels, me thinks, are detrimental to our mission. Do you think someone that learned the game thirty years ago and happens to be a LM would ever think of themselves as a Beginner? Forget about the fact that they can't solve a Level III (or some level II) Bridge Master hand. I guarantee you that they are going to consider themselves at least an intermediate, and if they play a little better than their peers, they are advanced. Only the truly delusional at this level call themselves experts.

 

With this in mind, maybe we should re-think our approach here. I would strongly suggest getting rid of the "beginner" label. While there are many bright beginners out there (juniors are a good example), they will learn the game no matter how we label the sections.

 

There is an objective here. I think there are three legitimate categories for newer players, and Fred and Co. have already established them. They are Level I, II and III hands. I tend to think of card play as the media and not bidding, but there are problems more suitable for newer players.

 

I never want to see another Level IV or V hand posted in the BI. Never! Prepare to get the ***** flamed out of you if you do.

 

There's an old saying, "You don't teach calculus to 6th graders". Notice that its 6th graders, and not 2nd graders. There are many that play bridge, and they might even play reasonably, but they would never get some of the hands posted in the BI.

 

Last week, I started my 1st set of lessons in Palm Desert. I had two people quit the first day, even though I am teaching 'low intermediates". We were doing things like 'card combinations' and 'garbage stayman'. Not the toughest subject matter, but anything is tough when you haven't see it before. Guess who immediately re-thought his approach?

 

The next day we covered RKC. You can make damn sure that I spent two hours making sure they got the four basic responses, before we branched off into the queen ask and specific kings. I think they are learning. Here's a hand we covered:

 

[hv=n=skxxxxhxxdak8xxcx&s=saqjtxxhajdxxxcax]133|200|[/hv]

 

After teaching them about the importance of making aggressive leads against small slams, LHO leads the heart 10, x, Q, A.

 

75% of them got this right. I think there's hope for them :(

[han]

Sceptic, I am not sure what you are asking for. You post a fair number of hands on the forums, most often accompanied with no question or with only "comments on the bidding?". Then we give comments on the bidding (some people actually put a lot of effort into this, explaining what they think about every single bid and why) and then you interpret this as being ripped apart?

 

True, if you post an auction like 1NT-3NT-6NT then you are probably going to get some responses like "the 1NT opener is an idiot" but I think that there are several people on the forums who try hard to give their honest opinion on the auctions without being offensive.

 

What it is that you expect?

[vuroth]

This space really works best when it's user driven. The compound squeeze and trump elopement problems are probably good for me, even though I can't pull off even a simple squeeze. What would probably be better is if I started posting hands where I missed, or may have missed, simple squeezes, or where I took a finesse instead of a strip-and-endplay/

 

But that's just me. To someone else, the complex squeezes might be just what they need, either because they're starting to master them, or because they've never encountered the concept in their life, and are having a new door open.

 

On the other hand, if a beginner who can't figure out how to find a 6♦ contract when they have AKxx x AKJTx JTx because all they knew was "use Stayman, bid 3NT when partner shows hearts" isn't really going to get much out of 3 really good endplay/simple squeeze examples.

 

I think this is one of the best resources in the world for improving your game. I feel so fortunate to have high quality players willing to answer my questions. Even when the answers are overzealous, they're a thousand times better than silence and frustration.

 

I've never seen anyone here be so over the top that they wouldn't answer even a basic question, like "what's Stayman?" Furthermore, I think that a lot of VERY good players go WAY out of their way to help, trying to post their own content here, hoping that it will help those of us who are developing.

 

It would be a real shame if that discouraged true beginners from asking questions. If the content here occasionally strays towards the high end, it's more often than not due to the fact that those of us who could best use the resources here aren't creating enough content to keep things moving.

 

0.02

[sceptic]

Sceptic, I am not sure what you are asking for. You post a fair number of hands on the forums, most often accompanied with no question or with only "comments on the bidding?". Then we give comments on the bidding (some people actually put a lot of effort into this, explaining what they think about every single bid and why) and then you interpret this as being ripped apart?

 

True, if you post an auction like 1NT-3NT-6NT then you are probably going to get some responses like "the 1NT opener is an idiot" but I think that there are several people on the forums who try hard to give their honest opinion on the auctions without being offensive.

 

What it is that you expect?

Actually Han I do get ripped apart occasionally, (sceptic, I am sick of yor pointless posts and a few other bits and pieces) but, I really do not think all the time, just occasionally, possibly well deservedly, I ask for comments only as I am quite interested in the different view points, I like the forums and I respect the opinions of most people here, I expect nothing for myself and I am not complaining, I am merely suggesting something, I do realise that a lot of stuff in the B/I is over some peoples head and I am not complaining about it, I am merely saying it, interpret it how you wish, I really wish I could put my point across as well in writing as I can verbally