Jump Shift

[Califdude]

Got a bottom board tonight and thought I would ask here for comments.

a. What does 2H bid mean in this sequence, playing ACOL?

b. What does it mean playing SAYC?

 

1C-P-2H

 

(I can't find the SAYC answer on a print-out of the SAYC card...if it's there I missed it.))

 

Thank you for replies.

[P_Marlowe]

Both system play SJS.

 

As a reference for SAYC

http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/...gle%20pages.pdf

 

Section "Responses and Later Bidding after a 1H / 1S opening"

and the following section.

 

Since there is no document, which has the authority saying "what is

written here, is how Acol gets played" I wont post any link.

But Soloway Jump Shifts are a more precise definition, how Acol

played SJS back in the 70's (or evenn further back).

 

That said, WJS are fairly popular, and some peoble play Reverse

Flannery, what is played is heavily depend on level and the area,

from which the player is coming.

 

...

 

In the end, if you make an undiscussed jump shift response,

expect to a misunderstanding, in short: avoid to make one.

You cant stop partner, but you can stop yourself

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

According to the Standard English Acol system file (www.ebu.co.uk/publications/ConventionCards-SystemsInformation/StandardEnglishSystemFiles.pdf):

 

This shows at least a decent 5card

suit and 16 or more HCP (perhaps a little

less with a very good suit or an excellent fit). A jump shift is used on only three

hand types:

· A single 6+ card suit, where the suit is good enough to rebid

· A 5+ suit with good 3card

or longer support for opener’s suit

· A single 5card

suit, where the rebid can be in no trumps.

 

It is extremely old fashioned to include 5332 hands in the strong jump shifts.

 

As far as I can see, the document Uwe posted a link to does not describe strong jump shifts in SAYC. If it is described anywhere I would expect it to be similar to the English Acol definition, except for the 5332 hands.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

As far as I can see, the document Uwe posted a link to does not describe strong jump shifts in SAYC.

<snip>

Yes, the document only says, that SJS are played,

not how a suitable hand looks like.

[Quantumcat]

Strong jump shifts don't really make sense since 1H is forcing. Wouldn't a splinter be better? All the better for splinter to be a level lower after a minor open, room to investigate 3NT if necessary.

[EricK]

Strong jump shifts don't really make sense since 1H is forcing. Wouldn't a splinter be better? All the better for splinter to be a level lower after a minor open, room to investigate 3NT if necessary.

That's really quite a naive comment. Just because 1♥ is forcing doesn't mean that the GF/slam invitational hands will be able to be bid accurately.

 

In fact, one of the more common hand types posted on this forum in the "assign the blame" or "what went wrong" threads is the one in which responder bids 1M when they have a SJS type. This is certainly evidence that, in practice, the SJS is useful.

[Quantumcat]

So, does this mean that if you choose not to use a SJS, then opener can pass your next bid??

 

If not, what's the point of a SJS if opener can't pass your next forcing bid?

 

Surely all you have to do is make another forcing bid at your next call to keep the opener bidding.

 

If you agree SJS in your partnership then if you chose not to use one, opener could pass your next forcing call if he likes??

[matmat]

So, does this mean that if you choose not to use a SJS, then opener can pass your next bid??

 

If not, what's the point of a SJS if opener can't pass your next forcing bid?

 

Surely all you have to do is make another forcing bid at your next call to keep the opener bidding.

 

If you agree SJS in your partnership then if you chose not to use one, opener could pass your next forcing call if he likes??

some jump-shift discussion can be found here.

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=28154

[helene_t]

Surely all you have to do is make another forcing bid at your next call to keep the opener bidding.

This is fine if you have a second suit so that you can bid that (forcing) if opener rebids his opening suit. Actually. SJS should not be used with two-suited hands unless one of the suits is opener's suit.

 

But suppose it goes

1♦-1♠

2♣-?

and you hold a strong hand with spades, or with spades+diamonds. Since 3♠ and 3♦ are not forcing, you have to use fourth suit forcing first. So it may continue

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♥

3♣-3♠

and now we have used three levels of bidding space and while it is not at all clear how good opener's hand is for a spade slam, while responder has said that he has a GF hand with spades which is kinda vague, too.

[1eyedjack]

So, does this mean that if you choose not to use a SJS, then opener can pass your next bid??

 

If not, what's the point of a SJS if opener can't pass your next forcing bid?

 

Surely all you have to do is make another forcing bid at your next call to keep the opener bidding.

 

If you agree SJS in your partnership then if you chose not to use one, opener could pass your next forcing call if he likes??

In several of my partnerships I play SJS. I do not know if they are superior. If not, I do not expect them to be inferior by so great a margin that it becomes a priority to disturb the system. As well as playing SJS we also play new suits as forcing in sequences that do not start with the SJS. We should, in theory, with such a wealth of sequences available to investigate slam, have close to a 100% record in our slam bidding. We do not. Indeed most of our poor decisions come not from the sequences that commence with a SJS but with the other sequences. Personal incompetence no doubt plays a part in the explanation for the failure rate. Even so, I would take some convincing that the success rate would improve by reducing the number of sequences available to investigate slam, by eliminitating the SJS and forcing such hands also to be expressed by an apparently already overloaded simple change of suit. It may yet be right to make that change, if the benefits of the alternative use of the jump shift more than compensate. But that is a separate argument.

[Quantumcat]

Choosing to have SJS doesn't increase the amount of sequences, because if you choose not to include SJS in your partnership, it would have a novel meaning.

[EricK]

Choosing to have SJS doesn't increase the amount of sequences, because if you choose not to include SJS in your partnership, it would have a novel meaning.

If your novel meaning is, say, a WJS then you have reduced the number of sequences available on the strong hands. If your novel meaning is, say, a splinter, then you have reduced the frequency of the SJS, so have still increased the proportion of strong hands which have to go through 1M and the consequent vague forcing bids which inevitably follow.

[Quantumcat]

yeah that's fair enough.

[H_KARLUK]

I saw some players give "last resort" over 1C/D with 2H/S. Sorry I forgot that convention name.

 

i.e.

1C>1H

1S/NT;2C >2H means different (seems F1 ) at their CC.

[awm]

So, does this mean that if you choose not to use a SJS, then opener can pass your next bid??

 

If not, what's the point of a SJS if opener can't pass your next forcing bid?

 

Surely all you have to do is make another forcing bid at your next call to keep the opener bidding.

 

If you agree SJS in your partnership then if you chose not to use one, opener could pass your next forcing call if he likes??

No, there is no passing of forcing bids. Here's an example where SJS are extremely useful:

 

♠xx

♥AKQxxxx

♦x

♣AKx

 

Partner opens 1♦. You could easily have a slam or even a grand slam. What's your plan? Say you reply 1♥. Partner rebids a (not-unexpected) 2♦. At this point most would play 2♥ as weak and 3♥ as invitational. So in order to create a force you have to make up a bid (probably 3♣). Now partner is fairly likely to bid 3NT. All you wanted was to set hearts as trump in a forcing way and find out if there is a spade control, then bid keycard in hearts if we have one. And yet the auction has spiraled out of control. Playing SJS, start with 2♥ and then rebid 3♥ over partner's rebid, which sets hearts as trumps and forces a cuebid.