What is the least you would never pass with?

[DrTodd13]

Playing standard american, partner opens 1♦ and you respond 1♠. Partner bids 2♣. I had a discussion the other day with someone and we wondered how well beginners and intermediates know standard american. If you're a beginner or intermediate please answer this poll with the least number of points you would generally have and find a pass of 2♣ unacceptable?

[jdonn]

For me 9. Well 100% I would never pass with 10, and I think over 99% I would never pass with 9, but the hand might possibly exist where I would.

[rogerclee]

Josh is a beginner/int now?

[ochinko]

I voted for 10 because I pass with something like Qxxx-Qxx-Jx-Kjxx. Looks like I am the most conservative for now.

[DrTodd13]

In some horrible misfit perhaps but if it isn't a misfit would you ever pass a 7 point hand when partner could have 18?

[ochinko]

In some horrible misfit perhaps but if it isn't a misfit would you ever pass a 7 point hand when partner could have 18?

With 18 I would expect 3♣ instead of 2♣. Most of the time my partner will be closer to 11 than to 17. Wouldn't you open with ♠xx-♥xx-♦AKxxx-♣Axxx?

[DrTodd13]

3♣ (a jump shift by opener) is 100% game forcing. You wouldn't game force with 18 opposite 5 would you?

 

You admit 2♣ could be 17 so why would you ever pass with 10 or even 8?

[ochinko]

3♣ (a jump shift by opener) is 100% game forcing. You wouldn't game force with 18 opposite 5 would you?

 

You admit 2♣ could be 17 so why would you ever pass with 10 or even 8?

I voted for 10, so I wouldn't pass with 10. And I gave an example hand with which I would pass with 9. And it had a fit. What would you bid with it?

[DrTodd13]

3♣ (a jump shift by opener) is 100% game forcing.  You wouldn't game force with 18 opposite 5 would you?

 

You admit 2♣ could be 17 so why would you ever pass with 10 or even 8?

I voted for 10, so I wouldn't pass with 10. And I gave an example hand with which I would pass with 9. And it had a fit. What would you bid with it?

3♣ seems pretty normal there.

[dicklont]

Partner can hold 17 HCP unbalanced.

Therefore is must try to find a bid with 8, but that won't always be possible.

Still I voted 8.

[ochinko]

3♣ (a jump shift by opener) is 100% game forcing.  You wouldn't game force with 18 opposite 5 would you?

 

You admit 2♣ could be 17 so why would you ever pass with 10 or even 8?

I voted for 10, so I wouldn't pass with 10. And I gave an example hand with which I would pass with 9. And it had a fit. What would you bid with it?

3♣ seems pretty normal there.

Realistically opener will have 12-14 most of the time. If you want him to accept with good 14, you should have more than 5-6, no?

 

Let's turn the table now. You open with xx-Kx-AQxxx-KQxx. If it goes 1♦-1♠-2♣-2NT do you pass now because you expect as little as 7 points or less?

[han]

Opener will bid 2C with some 18's, responder will pass with some 8's, you will play in some 2C contracts with 3NT cold.

[fred]

I think those who argue "you must try to find a bid with 7 because otherwise you might miss a game if partner has a super-maximum" are missing something.

 

While it is true that there is a downside in passing with such a hand (you could miss a game) there is also a downside to bidding with such a hand (you could get too high).

 

In the end, bridge is a game of probabilities. Regardless of how you answer this question you will win some of the time and lose some of the time. In order to come up with a proper answer to this question you need to take into account both the risks and the rewards of the various answers (as well as the relative likelyness of various outcomes).

 

Thinking only about "the risk of missing game" is not sufficient for coming up with the correct answer.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[han]

Form of scoring seems very relevant btw.

[DrTodd13]

3♣ (a jump shift by opener) is 100% game forcing.  You wouldn't game force with 18 opposite 5 would you?

 

You admit 2♣ could be 17 so why would you ever pass with 10 or even 8?

I voted for 10, so I wouldn't pass with 10. And I gave an example hand with which I would pass with 9. And it had a fit. What would you bid with it?

3♣ seems pretty normal there.

Realistically opener will have 12-14 most of the time. If you want him to accept with good 14, you should have more than 5-6, no?

 

Let's turn the table now. You open with xx-Kx-AQxxx-KQxx. If it goes 1♦-1♠-2♣-2NT do you pass now because you expect as little as 7 points or less?

I think that 2N should show more strength than a preference to one of opener's minors. Maybe with a very weak hand one should bid 2♦ (with at least 2♦) even with 4+♣ to give opener another chance. Personally, I think if my system presented me with this problem then I wouldn't play that system given there are other systems that don't have nearly as huge a hole in it. Still, when in doubt, overbid. With a terrible misfit I'd look to get out as cheap as possible but if I have any kind of a fit I'd strive to bid again. True, we might end up at 3♣ with 18 points but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[jdonn]

Josh is a beginner/int now?

I thought you were all about talking about the bridge instead of personal attacks :)

[mike777]

Playing with a great pickup partner I am never going to pass 10. I feel comfortable passing 6. I think I will pass many 7 pointers but bid many 9 pointers.

Lets call 8 pointers 60-40 bid.

[TimG]

Realistically opener will have 12-14 most of the time. If you want him to accept with good 14, you should have more than 5-6, no?

 

Let's turn the table now. You open with xx-Kx-AQxxx-KQxx. If it goes 1♦-1♠-2♣-2NT do you pass now because you expect as little as 7 points or less?

Not all continuations suggest opener should "accept" with a good 14.

 

Preference to diamonds leaves the auction open, but doesn't mean opener should be bidding game with his good 14s. He will bid again, however, when he has 17 or 18.

 

You example auction, 1♦-1♠-2♣-2N, suggests a different strength hand than a mere preference to 2♦. I would expect around 10-11 for this 2N rebid.

[pclayton]

I suppose with an ugly 9 count and 1=3 in the minors I'd pass. This is an absoulte max and I would apologize profusely if we had a game.

[rbforster]

I think a lot of people will take "false preference" sometimes here, say with 4♣ and 3♦ and a low-end hand (7-8?), and bid 2♦ even though they have longer or equal clubs. This gives opener a chance for another bid when they have a big hand (like 2N or something).

[awm]

Still, when in doubt, overbid.

I disagree with this statement.

 

First off, opener's 11-18 range is much more likely to be 11-14 than 15-18 even though these are both the same number of point totals. So if you are forced to guess, either making a pass that could miss game opposite the very max of the max 17-18 hands or a bid that could get too high opposite 11-14, you will tend to win by being conservative.

 

Second, what is opener to do after your wide-ranging raise? If he takes the same advice (when in doubt, overbid) you will get to game on 22 high with great frequency. Good luck with that.

 

Third, opener can game force with 18 hcp or a good 17. Yes, it is possible to get too high this way. But it is also possible to get too high by inviting with 7-counts. And at least you have the benefit that when partner has 5-8 hcp (i.e. responder too weak to invite) he is more likely to be at the top end of the range than the bottom, whereas when partner has 11-18 (i.e. opener too weak to force game) he is more likely to be at the bottom end of the range than the top!

[rogerclee]

Josh is a beginner/int now?

I thought you were all about talking about the bridge instead of personal attacks :P

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but obviously my comment was because OP stated:

 

If you're a beginner or intermediate please answer this poll with the least number of points you would generally have and find a pass of 2♣ unacceptable?

 

I took that to mean he wanted this poll to be for beginner/int only. Of course technically the poll and the thread are seperate, but adv/exp posters can bias a poll pretty easily especially when they are a national and world champ!

[ochinko]

I think that 2N should show more strength than a preference to one of opener's minors.  Maybe with a very weak hand one should bid 2♦ (with at least 2♦) even with 4+♣ to give opener another chance.  Personally, I think if my system presented me with this problem then I wouldn't play that system given there are other systems that don't have nearly as huge a hole in it.  Still, when in doubt, overbid.  With a terrible misfit I'd look to get out as cheap as possible but if I have any kind of a fit I'd strive to bid again.  True, we might end up at 3♣ with 18 points but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

2NT invites a NT game. 3♣ isn't a simple suit preference because you could have passed 2♣. It should be a similar invitation to 5♣ or 3NT so it shouldn't be weaker, on the contrary. If you invite with any garbage 9 most of the time you're going to be either down at 3♣ when partner is minimal, or down at 5♣ when his hand is near the top.

 

Of course, there are also good 8's and 9's that deserve an invitation. My 3♣ would promise at least something like Axxx-x-xxx-Axxxx.

[Roupoil]

Interesting answers here, I must confess I thought totally normal to rebid with all 9 points hands and almost all 8 points hands. It wouldn't occur to me that one can pass with your first exemple ochinko (9 points and fit, I bid 3!c). But I see now that you don't have the same conception of the rebid of 3!c as I have. For me, 3!c is just fit and 8-10 points (ok, I can pass some ugly 8 points depanding on scoring). The point I don't understand is when you say we will bid poor games if inviting with 3!c on such hands. For me, an opener in the 12-14 zone will almost always pass 3!c, and will only accept a game in the 15-17 zone. And I don't really think it is so rare opener is 15-17, all (13)54 hands with 15-17 points would bid this way, and I suppose you would invite game facing for example a strong no trump with an 8-point hand with known fit, don't you ?

[vuroth]

For me 9. Well 100% I would never pass with 10, and I think over 99% I would never pass with 9, but the hand might possibly exist where I would.

This was actually what I was thinking, but this isn't a subject I'd given a lot of thought.

 

Good thread for sure.

 

V