Double Void

[pclayton]

I've seen 3 double voids in the last two weeks (not by me, but at my table). Here's one from yesterday:

 

♠-- ♥AKQTxxxx ♦-- ♣KQxxx

 

Matchpoints, you are dealer.

 

Some hidden continuations:

If you 2♣, you hear 2♠ - pass (showing values) - 3♠ - ? . If you open 1♥, you hear 1S - double - 2H.

 

[rogerclee]

1H seems beyond clear to begin with. The important thing seems to be to get our suits in.

 

What is the vulnerability? If we are r/w it may be right just to try to buy the hand and bid something like 4H then 5H over 4S. If we are w/r I am more concerned about finding out about the club ace for 7. I would start with a jump to 4C and go from there.

[han]

Roger, it seems wrong to give up on slam when we are red and to try for 7 when we are white. I can see your reasons for wanting to blast red against white (since then they are more likely to find a good sac if we go slowly) but I'd rather open 6H than 4H.

 

I would open 1H and I wouldn't stop short of slam unless one of the opponents shows clubs. An uncontested auction starting with 2C.. 3H could be the best way to find out if partner has the club ace but of course the chance that the auction remains uncontested is very small.

[rogerclee]

Han, thought this was clear but I am opening 1H at all vulnerabilities (I said it was beyond clear!), and was working with the hidden continuations thereafter. If you look at the hidden continuations after opening 1H then maybe you will understand my comments more :)

[han]

Ah ok, my bad. I think that 4H after partner has shown some values in the minors is still wrong though. Of course the opponents are going to bid 4S almost surely but ar they going to bid over 5H? Seems too risky to me.

 

The problem is of course that after this start we cannot ever convince partner to cuebid in support of hearts, there is just no forcing bid available that says hearts is trump. Although, what is 4S here? I'll won't bid it now but leave it for later to discuss on the forums.

 

I'm just going to bid 6H, second choice 2S.

[rogerclee]

Han, how many do you think 6S will go down? I think it is very likely that it will only go down 3 on their current auction. I also think it is quite likely they will bid 5S over 5H and then sell to 6H after the 4H 5H 6H sequence. Of course it is all opponent dependent. Some opps might even double you in 5 lol :) Some opps will view your 4H, 5H, 6H sequence as exactly what it is and save anyways. But I think a majority of opps are going to save over 6H almost always and might sell to 5 or 6 if you go slower (but make it believable, don't start with 3H or something dumb). Of course it is all a matter of tactics and guesswork when you are r/w.

 

Agree that starting with 2S might be the other good way to get them to let you play 6, and you might also find 7 reasonably starting that way too, I think 6H is clearly inferior to 2S from both constructive and tactical standpoints.

[gwnn]

almost perfect hand for specific ace ask?

[Echognome]

I kind of like opening 6♥. It just seems that it will be very difficult to find out if partner has the right cards for grand. Even the ♣A doesn't guarantee it (although it'd be an odd hand indeed). So just make the bid that is least likely to induce a sacrifice. Let the opponents decide if I have 6♥ made or not.

[jdonn]

Am I still the only person left who uses a 4NT opening as specific ace blackwood? Some of my friends don't even believe me, but I swear it's still my preference!

 

If I wasn't playing that I would definitely open 1♥ and take it as slowly as possible if the opponents don't completely jam me off the bat.

[han]

Han, how many do you think 6S will go down? I think it is very likely that it will only go down 3 on their current auction. I also think it is quite likely they will bid 5S over 5H and then sell to 6H after the 4H 5H 6H sequence. Of course it is all opponent dependent. Some opps might even double you in 5 lol :) Some opps will view your 4H, 5H, 6H sequence as exactly what it is and save anyways. But I think a majority of opps are going to save over 6H almost always and might sell to 5 or 6 if you go slower (but make it believable, don't start with 3H or something dumb). Of course it is all a matter of tactics and guesswork when you are r/w.

 

Agree that starting with 2S might be the other good way to get them to let you play 6, and you might also find 7 reasonably starting that way too, I think 6H is clearly inferior to 2S from both constructive and tactical standpoints.

Interesting thoughts Roger, but have you ever heard of the golden rule?

 

Josh and Csaba, I agree that 4NT specific ace ask would work out very well here and it would be obvious to use it. Unfortunately I don't play it.

[pclayton]

This is a very good hand for a 4N opening. I play it in most of my partnerships (I didn't have this hand, as I said).

 

I also think this is a good hand for a Namyats opener. I would pull 4♦ or 4♥ to 4♠ which focuses on the clubs. Another suggestion is to namyats, and then bid 5♣. This might be a scientific way to get pard invoved with something in clubs.

 

2♣ is possible, but you are getting barraged probably.

 

1♥ seems obvious and thats what the person bid at our table. She heard, (1♠) - double - (2♥) - she bid 4♥ (?!)

 

Now 4♠ on her left and her husband DOUBLES. Oh well, she thinks, I guess I'll defend with my 8-5 LOL.

 

My pard could have held it to -1, but -500 was a top.

[Codo]

I played 4 NT for a while and it NEVER worked. At both times I used it, the opponents bid on the 5. level.

 

I think this hand is a "beyond clear" 6 HEart opening. :P

 

OR will it come to any surprise that the opps will compete in spades and or diamonds if you take the low road?

[gwnn]

I used 4NT once during one year of having that agreement. I have had 0 suitable hands for a 4NT opener. So in total there were 0 good results with 4NT.

[jdonn]

I used 4NT once during one year of having that agreement. I have had 0 suitable hands for a 4NT opener. So in total there were 0 good results with 4NT.

If you get any meaning of a 4NT opening much more than once a year, I think you aren't allocating your bids efficiently!

[Finch]

I've seen the 4NT specific ace ask a couple of times over the last 20-odd years, and it's worked fine. More to the point, I don't have a better use for it.

[whereagles]

Here's a silly idea: open 1♦, rebid 2♥. Then pull every one of pard's diamond preferences into hearts.

 

With a bit of luck, you'll get doubled in some nr. of hearts, making :)

[the hog]

3NT asking for specific Aces. 4NT if I am playing that and not the previous. Obvious hand for it.

[Cascade]

I too prefer 3NT asking for specific aces.

 

This hand isn't ideal as you need something more than just the ♣ Ace. But it is close enough to reasonable that I would open 3NT.

 

The last time 3NT came up for us was in the National trials in 2007.

[karlson]

Ok, now that every single person is opening 4n specific ace ask.

 

It seems standard to play that 5c is none and 5n is ♣A. Bids above 5n show 2 aces.

 

a) Is there a standard way to figure out which 2 aces partner holds? Have you ever discussed it?

 

b)Wouldn't the responses usually risk getting above 6 of your suit with the wrong ace missing?

 

One partner wanted to play that 5c showed 2 or more, and then you could ask. It seemed too costly to not be able to play 5c opposite none, so we dropped that. Now we have the agreement that we don't open 4n with 3 aces missing. So alas I wouldn't use my 4n on this hand.

 

Oh, and I've had it come up once. Partner opened 4n in 4th chair. Righty bid 5d! I had two aces and some other card, so I just tried 7n (it was club matchpoints.) The key suit was 4-1, so partner slid one off. Amazingly it was an average.

[kfay]

A possible 2-ace bid could be that 6♣ show 2 non-touching, 6♦ asks then you show your major. Others would show touching As with wrap=around.

[jdonn]

A possible 2-ace bid could be that 6♣ show 2 non-touching, 6♦ asks then you show your major. Others would show touching As with wrap=around.

Uh, so on the actual hand if partner has the spade and diamond aces you get forced to 7♥?

 

I think the best you can do (and I absolutely don't think it's even worth it) would be 6♣ is two aces without the club ace, 6♦ is two aces including the club ace, with no ask for which aces they are. At least then you won't bypass 6 of your trump suit.