2/1 with a bad suit and support?

[rbforster]

Playing 2/1, I held the below hand after partner opened 1♥:

 

[hv=d=n&s=saj8ha9xdqjcjt8xx]133|100|Scoring: MP

1♥-2♣

2♦-2♥

4♥-P[/hv]

I didn't like making a 2/1 bid with such a bad suit, but without 4 card support I didn't want to make a 2N (Jacoby) raise. Any suggestions on other ways to bid this?

 

In this particular case partner downgraded his minimum opening with a club void and we missed a good 6♥. He held something like

 

[hv=d=n&s=saj8ha9xdqjcjt8xx]133|100|Scoring: MP

1♥-2♣

2♦-2♥

4♥-P[/hv]

[gwnn]

You should play a 2/1 system where you can show a balanced hand with 3 card support, this will typically start with a 2♣ bid "♣'s or balanced" followed by relays or not followed by relays. There are many of these systems lurking around I think.

[Gerben42]

I will just plug in Fred's article on this subject.

 

Improving 2/1 GF (by F.G.)

 

I play a version of these methods with my regular partner and am happy with how we manage it.

 

As a point of interest, we have added symmetry to the structure and play:

 

1M - 2M+1 as balanced GF

1M - 2M+2 as "Jacoby"

 

This way, opener can bid the Flannery handtype cheaper if partner is balanced:

 

1♥ - 2♠* - 2NT = 4-card ♠

 

* min. GF or slammish, balanced

[Codo]

But even without any nice treatments.

 

You need so few cards to make slam good that he should have bid more then a lame 4 HEart.

 

I don't know your methods, but online I had bid 2 Spade as a Help suit. Pd had gladly cooperated with 3 Spade, showing no control in the minors but a better hand then just 3 Heart.

 

In my actual partnership I could have bid 3 Club as a short suit. Had helped but is not standard.

[kenrexford]

A good rule is to never leap from a GF 2♥ to an immediate 4♥ with 4 controls. Or, at a minimum, no jump if the answer would be "two with the Queen." Add a void in, and 4♥ was hopeless.

[Gerben42]

  A good rule is to never leap from a GF 2♥ to an immediate 4♥ with 4 controls. Or, at a minimum, no jump if the answer would be "two with the Queen." Add a void in, and 4♥ was hopeless.

 

Agree with this, but as a commentator I would replace "hopeless" with "rather pessimistic".

[han]

If you are not playing 2NT as a natural GF then 2C is automatic. Your partner should know that 2C can be bid with as little as xxxx.

[ASkolnick]

OK. You made a 2/1 game force and partner has a 4 loser hand. Using the LTC count (24-4 (his) -7 (yours)). You should make about 13 ticks. Let's assume he is worried about wasted values in clubs. He has no reason to jump. So the auction can go

 

1♥-2♣

2♦-2♥

3♦-3♠ (Your QJ diamonds are huge cards now, AS and no wasted clubs, you no longer have a min)

4♣-4♦

 

Off to the races. So I don't think it was relative that you started the auction with 2 Clubs, when partner could have kept bidding his hand out. When you show wasted values in clubs, he can give up.

[Gerben42]

Using the LTC count (24-4 (his) -7 (yours)). You should make about 13 ticks.

 

I love it when opponents use such arguments as an excuse for bad results. You cannot just add partner's losers to your own, the important number is how many of your losers are covered by your partner. His own number of losers is at best correlated with that.

 

I prefer "if a working minimum makes slam lay down, try for it". It's okay to be worried with this hand, after all if partner has ♣A instead of ♠A, you cannot afford to go past game. Luckily, this is something you can find out :angry:

[rogerclee]

4♥ is unthinkably poor.

[Apollo81]

2♣ can be bid with a variety of hands with 3-card support for the major, and doesn't promise significant club length or strength. Opener's job after 2♥ is to keep describing his own hand, so he has an automatic 3♦ call.

[peachy]

The 2C bid was not the cause of missing anything. The 4H bid was very ill-judged. Opener should bid 3D and describe his hand.

[han]

4♥ is unthinkably poor.

Nono, it's "rather pessimistic".

[Apollo81]

The 2C bid was not the cause of missing anything. The 4H bid was very ill-judged. Opener should bid 3D and describe his hand.

I don't think it was "ill judged" I think that player just does not understand how these auctions work.

[kenrexford]

4♥ is unthinkably poor.

Nono, it's "rather pessimistic".

:)

[mike777]

4♥ is unthinkably poor.

ditto.

[kenberg]

They say confession cleanses the soul so let me do a little cleansing. I suspect that I would, as North, begin with 1NT. Yes that bid is limited to 12 highs in theory but the QJ tight is worth 3, more than 3, because of the great fit. My plan would be that after an expected response of 2D I would next bid 4H, hoping pard can make it but not betting the house on it. If South, over 1N, is inspired to bid 3D instead of 2D we might well find our slam but it is a 27 hcp slam based on an exceptional fit. We all miss those slams sometimes no matter the system.

 

Feel free to tell me I'm nuts.

[Gerben42]

I suspect that I would, as North, begin with 1NT. Yes that bid is limited to 12 highs in theory

 

If 1NT is forcing, it doesn't need to deny a GF hand.

[han]

It doesn't need to but it does.

[655321]

suspect that I would, as North, begin with 1NT.

1NT is "rather pessimistic"

[rogerclee]

Feel free to tell me I'm nuts.

I don't think you are nuts, but I think that deciding that the hand is not worth a game force is very bad bridge. Not only are forcing NT sequences worse in general, but this hand is easily carrying its weight, with a heart fit and moderate shape. I think if you think about normal opening bids for partner, you will find that you miss a lot more good games than bad games and occasionally miss slam.

[oldman5757]

The 2♣ call is perfectly normal. I don't know why P doesn't bid out his pattern. 4♥ is a lazy call, IMHO. :D

[kenberg]

Feel free to tell me I'm nuts.

I don't think you are nuts, but I think that deciding that the hand is not worth a game force is very bad bridge. Not only are forcing NT sequences worse in general, but this hand is easily carrying its weight, with a heart fit and moderate shape. I think if you think about normal opening bids for partner, you will find that you miss a lot more good games than bad games and occasionally miss slam.

I'll never miss game regardless of the S hand although I confess to missing slam on these combined cards. I am planning on bidding 4H over a 2m response to 1N. If 1H-1N-2m-4H exists, this seemed to me to be a reasonable hand for it. Described as pessimistic, I accept that description. I would also accept nuts, but pessimistic is better.

[rogerclee]

Feel free to tell me I'm nuts.

I don't think you are nuts, but I think that deciding that the hand is not worth a game force is very bad bridge. Not only are forcing NT sequences worse in general, but this hand is easily carrying its weight, with a heart fit and moderate shape. I think if you think about normal opening bids for partner, you will find that you miss a lot more good games than bad games and occasionally miss slam.

I'll never miss game regardless of the S hand although I confess to missing slam on these combined cards. I am planning on bidding 4H over a 2m response to 1N. If 1H-1N-2m-4H exists, this seemed to me to be a reasonable hand for it. Described as pessimistic, I accept that description. I would also accept nuts, but pessimistic is better.

It is inconsistent for you to rebid 4♥ over any minimum rebid partner can make but not start with 2♣. If you are going to bid game anyway, you may as well start with 2♣, which will lead to a nicer auction on all of your slam hands. You will only very infrequently gain when partner would incorrectly bid slam opposite a 2♣ response but stop at the 5-level opposite a forcing 1N. I don't know what hand this is, and anyway, partner will be doing the opposite (not getting to slam when he should) far more often. You will also lose the ability to play 3N when you want to, which I would gladly cooperate with if that is what partner wants.

[effervesce]

Partner's 4♥ bid was bad. Despite having a void in your suit, he still has a huge hand with a great 5 card sidesuit. The whole point of 2/1 is to save space for slam investigation- why then waste it by bidding 4♥.