Is this forcing?

[Wackojack]

[hv=d=w&v=b&n=sa854hak42d5c9873&w=sk1063h10dk10842cak2&e=sqj7hqj876daq73cj&s=s92h953dj96cq10654]399|300|Scoring: MP[/hv]

I was invited by a good friend to join him as an opp and found myself in a high profile encounter with lots of kibs. With no prior agreements with partner, this hand came up and I was sitting East. The bidding went:

 

1♦, (dbl) 1♥ pass

1♠ pass 2♣ pass

pass pass

 

Here is some chat that went with it:

p:See another part score wadayathink?"

opp: this sounded F to me

p: i guess ill leave

p: didnt to me

p:failing to xx.. for me..

p: is never forcing after 1 round

kib: of course it's forcing in 2/1. he's nuts!

 

There was more support for my position later.

 

Ofcourse my first response could have been a jump fit with 2♥ to get the message across, but I am not sure how that would have been taken. Having made what I thought was a safe response of 1♥, I thought I could do no better that just force with 2♣ and next show support for ♦. Looks a bit messy but, what else?

 

Having had time to reflect, partner's (sic) remark about failing to redouble has got me thinking. My knowledge of a redouble in this situation comes from way back when you redoubled to show strength in the other 3 suits and a shortage in partner's opening suit. Is it now an "expert standard" to redouble with any strong hand where you know you can outbid the opps? In which case, how do you later get to tell partner that you have this type of hand with good support for his suit and also a good side suit, rather than say a 12 count 4414 type of hand?

 

What would you have done in my situation?

[rogerclee]

You bid great. Hands like yours need to start naming suits, since they are unlikely to actually be able to penalize the opponents, and redoubling is very vulnerable to preemption. Not all strong hands should start with a redouble; taking a round of bidding just to show approximate strength is losing bridge.

[helene_t]

Your p plays palaeolithic bridge.

[Ant590]

Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but it seems odd to have to redouble with all 9HCP hands (or whatever your cutoff). Surely it make it more lucrative for LHO to jam the auction to a greater extent. I guess the same thing could be said for NFBs, and a lot of great players play these.

[skjaeran]

In my partnerships, where the xyz-convention apply, it's on here, and 2♣ would be a puppet to 2♦, either to play or to invite (in some strain).

 

When not playing xyz, this would be FSF for me.

[han]

I like 1♥.

[y66]

Agree with other posters. In Bridge World Standard 2001:

After our minor-suit opening and a takeout double:

 

(a) a one-level new-suit response is forcing (by an unpassed hand);

 

(b) one diamond — (double) — two clubs is not forcing;

 

© two notrump shows a game-invitational or stronger raise of opener’s suit (direct jump-raises are preemptive);

 

(d) a direct single raise is natural, similar to a single major-suit raise;

 

(e) a jump-shift is preemptive;

 

(f) a double jump-shift is a splinter raise;

 

(g) a redouble shows any hand with 10-plus HCP that is not suitable for a raise or a new-suit bid.

[kgr]

Prefer 1♥ to REDBL. Opps most probably have an exit to 2♣ if you REDBL. This is clear to me.

...

More intesting is question what to if bidding would have gone:

1♣-(DBL)-??

Do people prefer RDBL or 1♥ then?

[P_Marlowe]

2C is forcing, FSF.

 

The failure to make XX means just, responder has no

desire to go for blood.

 

For that matter, this has nothing to do with 2/1.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[effervesce]

Agree with your bidding - partner's pass of the 2♣ bid was wrong.

[Codo]

There are still thousands out there who think that any bid but redouble denies 11+ HCPs. But they are wrong, so your bidding was fine.

[ASkolnick]

Let's assume, he does not think 1H is forcing. I agree not a good way to play, the chance of leaving the 4th suit in as natural is almost non-existent, so you must have something even if it means, I have a slightly under invitational two suiter.

[InTime]

To me 1♥ was forcing.

When responder changes suit, it is 100% forcing. Otherwise, responder must jump all over the place to get opener going.

Regards

[Cascade]

Bidding is much simplified if you bid your suits.

 

We play that redouble shows a strong hand but we have a note that we almost always prefer to bid a natural forcing suit. We haven't found any better treatment for the redouble.

[Wackojack]

Thanks for the replies. I have to say that I learned way back in time that redouble in this situation shows shortage in partner's suit some strength and no biddable suit of my own. The only source of new ideas on bidding theory for me come from reading this forum from time to time. And since my pick up partner was "high profile" (not a poster to the forums I might add) I wondered if there was a more modern expert view on the role of redouble here. Evidently not it seems.

 

The previous and first hand btw. You have opened a weak 2♠ LHO doubles and partner bids 3♠passed out. You need to tackle a hearts Q62 opposite A10875. I ran the Q covered by K A and 3. Got back to my hand with a trump and played 2 4 and rose with the 10. Surprise! It lost to the jack. Comment by partner: "ace h then towards q is correct"

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

The previous and first hand btw.  You have opened a weak 2♠ LHO doubles and partner bids 3♠passed out.  You need to tackle a hearts Q62 opposite A10875.  I ran the Q covered by K A and 3.  Got back to my hand  with a trump and played 2 4 and rose with the 10.  Surprise! It lost to the jack. Comment by partner: "ace h then towards q is correct"

Your play was fine, ... up to a point, you should have

played the 8 instead of the 10, if you dont tae the

bidding into account.

In the end you play something like a double finesse

against the K,J and 9.

 

Taking the bidding into account does not change the

above line, because LHO is more likely to have longer

hearts.

The finesse will also ensure, that you only loose 1 heart,

if hearts break 4-1, the 4 hearts with LHO.

 

I am sure other will correct the above, if it is wrong,

which is not unlikely, because if it comes to suit play, I

am intermediate at best.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[joker_gib]

As others said : you were right.

 

Redoubling tends to show a hand with other suits than partner's suit so that you can try to go for blood !

 

If you redouble with all hands of 9+, you will have a lot of problems if the opps jump in their good fit !

 

There are also hands where you don't want to penalize due to the unfavorable vulnerability.

[Finch]

There are still thousands out there who think that any bid but redouble denies 11+ HCPs. But they are wrong, so your bidding was fine.

Clearly if these thousands of people are playing with each other, they are right.

 

There are three schools of thought:

 

1. Ignore the double (approximately) for constructive bidding. Bids are natural and forcing, you only redouble on a specific hand-type where you are seriously interested in taking a penalty (archetypal redouble: 4441 12-count with singleton in partner's suit).

 

A sub-school of this school plays redouble as artificial and doesn't even bother trying to take a penalty unless they volunteer it.

 

This is the most common English agreement currently.

 

2. Play everything as non-forcing. All strong hands have to jump or redouble.

This used to be standard, but is now considered by most to be very old-fashioned.

 

3. Play 1-level bids as natural and forcing, play 2-level bids as non-forcing. This is BW standard and appears to be a general American standard. I'm not sure BWS actually addresses follow-ups in detail. It's possible your partner was in a (slightly confused) version of this school.