Debate #3

[Lobowolf]

It might be interesting to speculate on the response of the moderator and/or the viewers if Obama had said that he believes that this clause [oops, amendment, as noted] of the Constitution prohibits states from passing laws against  abortion. I don't know if this is or is not the basis of his reasoning. I guess someone could ask him.

I'd imagine it's unlikely. He's indicated not just that he's in favor of abortion rights, but also that Roe v. Wade was a correct decision. As a graduate from a top law school, certainly his use of the word "privacy," isn't a random support of his position. It's highly suggestive of his agreement with the Court's reasoning, which didn't rest on "unreasonable search & seizure" basis.

[Lobowolf]

BTW, I read somewhere that despite all the criticism for his 'present' votes, McCain missed a lot more votes than Obama did during the time between when Obama joined the Senate and the Presidential campaigning began. Does anyone know a good way or place to check on that?

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congres...e/vote-missers/

[Al_U_Card]

I already can see I will be paying off on a bet favoring McCain, but I think I would be willing to place another bet that Hillary Clinton will not be placed on the Supreme Court in the next four years. I am generally a supporter of both Clintons but judicial temperament is not a phrase that comes to mind when I think of Hillary. Of course it doesn't come to mind when I think of Scalia either.

Are they taking any lines on assassination attempts? :(

[hrothgar]

It might be interesting to speculate on the response of the moderator and/or the viewers if Obama had said that he believes that this clause [oops, amendment, as noted] of the Constitution prohibits states from passing laws against  abortion. I don't know if this is or is not the basis of his reasoning. I guess someone could ask him.

I'd imagine it's unlikely. He's indicated not just that he's in favor of abortion rights, but also that Roe v. Wade was a correct decision. As a graduate from a top law school, certainly his use of the word "privacy," isn't a random support of his position. It's highly suggestive of his agreement with the Court's reasoning, which didn't rest on "unreasonable search & seizure" basis.

Obama was Lawrence Tribe's star student...

 

Tribe recently published a book titled "The Invisible Constitution"... I don't think its that great a leap to suggest that Tribes theories on Roe v Wade may have influenced Obama's opinions.

 

Admittedly, Roberts was also a student of Tribes. Alito may have been as well. However, Tribe doesn't comment much on Roberts. Nor did he use Tribe as a research assistant.

[Lobowolf]

It might be interesting to speculate on the response of the moderator and/or the viewers if Obama had said that he believes that this clause [oops, amendment, as noted] of the Constitution prohibits states from passing laws against  abortion. I don't know if this is or is not the basis of his reasoning. I guess someone could ask him.

I'd imagine it's unlikely. He's indicated not just that he's in favor of abortion rights, but also that Roe v. Wade was a correct decision. As a graduate from a top law school, certainly his use of the word "privacy," isn't a random support of his position. It's highly suggestive of his agreement with the Court's reasoning, which didn't rest on "unreasonable search & seizure" basis.

Obama was Lawrence Tribe's star student...

 

Tribe recently published a book titled "The Invisible Constitution"... I don't think its that great a leap to suggest that Tribes theories on Roe v Wade may have influenced Obama's opinions.

I'm sure he was an influence, and I'm sure Obama has a host of other influences as well, both legal and extra-legal.

 

When Obama says that Roe v. Wade was "correctly decided," and then deliberately uses the key word "privacy," a key term on which the decision rested, I think it's fairly clear that he's indicating agreement not merely with the result, but with the rationale.

[hrothgar]

It might be interesting to speculate on the response of the moderator and/or the viewers if Obama had said that he believes that this clause [oops, amendment, as noted] of the Constitution prohibits states from passing laws against  abortion. I don't know if this is or is not the basis of his reasoning. I guess someone could ask him.

I'd imagine it's unlikely. He's indicated not just that he's in favor of abortion rights, but also that Roe v. Wade was a correct decision. As a graduate from a top law school, certainly his use of the word "privacy," isn't a random support of his position. It's highly suggestive of his agreement with the Court's reasoning, which didn't rest on "unreasonable search & seizure" basis.

Obama was Lawrence Tribe's star student...

 

Tribe recently published a book titled "The Invisible Constitution"... I don't think its that great a leap to suggest that Tribes theories on Roe v Wade may have influenced Obama's opinions.

I'm sure he was an influence, and I'm sure Obama has a host of other influences as well, both legal and extra-legal.

 

When Obama says that Roe v. Wade was "correctly decided," and then deliberately uses the key word "privacy," a key term on which the decision rested, I think it's fairly clear that he's indicating agreement not merely with the result, but with the rationale.

Given that a major theme of the book in question has to do with the right to privacy, the two would seem equivalent

[PassedOut]

Does anyone know how Joe the Plumber fared in Algebra? I am always on the lookout for counter-examples to the claim that you can no longer succeed in life unless you have mastered the quadratic formula.

Poor Joe, now everyone knows his secrets.

 

Did McCain really mean that it would be good for education to give returning soldiers jobs as teachers without requiring certification? He must have left out some of what he meant to say.

[jdonn]

Does anyone know how Joe the Plumber fared in Algebra? I am always on the lookout for counter-examples to the claim that you can no longer succeed in life unless you have mastered the quadratic formula.

Poor Joe, now everyone knows his secrets.

 

Did McCain really mean that it would be good for education to give returning soldiers jobs as teachers without requiring certification? He must have left out some of what he meant to say.

I remember that. McCain certainly sounded weird saying teachers shouldn't need certification. Even other than that comment, they both seem a bit inconsistent on this.

 

"We need a whole lot more teachers! But let's kick out a bunch of terrible teachers."

 

How are we going to get more if we get rid of a bunch? And anyway, won't a terrible teacher who chose to be a teacher probably be terrible at other jobs too?

[Lobowolf]

It might be interesting to speculate on the response of the moderator and/or the viewers if Obama had said that he believes that this clause [oops, amendment, as noted] of the Constitution prohibits states from passing laws against  abortion. I don't know if this is or is not the basis of his reasoning. I guess someone could ask him.

I'd imagine it's unlikely. He's indicated not just that he's in favor of abortion rights, but also that Roe v. Wade was a correct decision. As a graduate from a top law school, certainly his use of the word "privacy," isn't a random support of his position. It's highly suggestive of his agreement with the Court's reasoning, which didn't rest on "unreasonable search & seizure" basis.

Obama was Lawrence Tribe's star student...

 

Tribe recently published a book titled "The Invisible Constitution"... I don't think its that great a leap to suggest that Tribes theories on Roe v Wade may have influenced Obama's opinions.

I'm sure he was an influence, and I'm sure Obama has a host of other influences as well, both legal and extra-legal.

 

When Obama says that Roe v. Wade was "correctly decided," and then deliberately uses the key word "privacy," a key term on which the decision rested, I think it's fairly clear that he's indicating agreement not merely with the result, but with the rationale.

Given that a major theme of the book in question has to do with the right to privacy, the two would seem equivalent

The question I was addressing was specifically whether Obama's Roe v. Wade support was based on a more direct and literal translation of "privacy" = "4th Amendment protection against search & seizure" (see Tim G's earlier post).

 

My response was that Obama was almost certainly in accord with the Court's more complex vision of "privacy" as set forth in the Roe v. Wade decision.

[Lobowolf]

Does anyone know how Joe the Plumber fared in Algebra? I am always on the lookout for counter-examples to the claim that you can no longer succeed in life unless you have mastered the quadratic formula.

Poor Joe, now everyone knows his secrets.

 

Did McCain really mean that it would be good for education to give returning soldiers jobs as teachers without requiring certification? He must have left out some of what he meant to say.

I remember that. McCain certainly sounded weird saying teachers shouldn't need certification. Even other than that comment, they both seem a bit inconsistent on this.

 

"We need a whole lot more teachers! But let's kick out a bunch of terrible teachers."

 

How are we going to get more if we get rid of a bunch? And anyway, won't a terrible teacher who chose to be a teacher probably be terrible at other jobs too?

"If you're a vet, you can teach without being certificated" struck me as one of the more bizarre things I heard. I can only hope he meant something other and/or more than he said.

 

It's difficult to fire bad teachers (at least in California). I think that both candidates would favor changing that (though a large part of it is due to the collective bargaining process, so I'm not sure how they'd intend to legislate around it), but at the same time ensuring that good teachers made more money, thus (hopefully) encouraging more (qualified) people to consider teaching as a career.

 

My undergrad major was English. I remember being fairly horrified in one required class that was covering what should have been some fairly basic points of grammar. Subject/verb agreement, subject/object distinctions (e.g. who v. whom), transitive/intransitive verbs, etc. Lots of people didn't get a lot of it, which is fine, but most of them didn't care and thought the distinctions were kind of useless too (which is also fine). THEN the professor said, "How many of you want to be English teachers?" and 2/3 of the hands in the room went up. Save us.

[luke warm]

Obama's use of "privacy" is the literal meaning of the passage in the Constitution.

is legal vs. illegal prostitution a privacy issue or a statute issue? how about drug use? i don't think the 4th amendment has anything to do with r v. w else prostitution would be legal on a federal level... and while it's true one could make the argument that prostitution has societal effects, one could similarly make the argument that abortion does

[Lobowolf]

Obama's use of "privacy" is the literal meaning of the passage in the Constitution.

is legal vs. illegal prostitution a privacy issue or a statute issue? how about drug use? i don't think the 4th amendment has anything to do with r v. w else prostitution would be legal on a federal level... and while it's true one could make the argument that prostitution has societal effects, one could similarly make the argument that abortion does

I think prostitution could reasonably be considered a privacy issue, in light of Roe v. Wade and related rulings. If a recognized right of privacy exists, it should probably govern most sexual choices made between consenting adults. It's a little bizarre to me that 1) I can legally walk up to a complete stranger and ask her to have sex and she can agree to; and 2) anyone can walk up to me on the street and ask me to give him or her money (and I can give that person money); BUT it's illegal for person A to give person B money for having sex with him/her.

 

With respect to the societal effects of abortion, one of them appears to be the reduction of crime beginning in the late 90's. For this and other interesting stories such as widespread cheating in sumo wrestling tournmants, see the book "Freakonomics."

[kenberg]

Does anyone know how Joe the Plumber fared in Algebra? I am always on the lookout for counter-examples to the claim that you can no longer succeed in life unless you have mastered the quadratic formula.

Poor Joe, now everyone knows his secrets.

 

Did McCain really mean that it would be good for education to give returning soldiers jobs as teachers without requiring certification? He must have left out some of what he meant to say.

I remember that. McCain certainly sounded weird saying teachers shouldn't need certification. Even other than that comment, they both seem a bit inconsistent on this.

 

"We need a whole lot more teachers! But let's kick out a bunch of terrible teachers."

 

How are we going to get more if we get rid of a bunch? And anyway, won't a terrible teacher who chose to be a teacher probably be terrible at other jobs too?

I admit I am guessing, but probably a suggestion to let someone teach w/o certification is intended to allow for qualified teachers who lack the paperwork to be in the classroom. This is far from the dumbest idea I have ever heard.

 

I'm not, at least not totally, dumping on the certification process but I think it is a rough sorting mechanism at best. Probably it would be in everyone's interest for the teacher to, over time, obtain certification but there really are a lot of folks out there who could teach a good course who have not, for example, passed a certification exam in pedagogy. To pass the pedagogy exam you need to memorize certain mantras and pretend that you believe them.

[Lobowolf]

I admit I am guessing, but probably a suggestion to let someone teach w/o certification is intended to allow for qualified teachers who lack the paperwork to be in the classroom. This is far from the dumbest idea I have ever heard.

 

I'm not, at least not totally, dumping on the certification process but I think it is a rough sorting mechanism at best. Probably it would be in everyone's interest for the teacher to, over time, obtain certification but there really are a lot of folks out there who could teach a good course who have not, for example, passed a certification exam in pedagogy. To pass the pedagogy exam you need to memorize certain mantras and pretend that you believe them.

Maybe so. It really came off like, "Let's reward vets by giving them teaching gigs, whether they're qualified or not." Which, I assume, was not what he had in mind. I don't think any of the major candidates is an idiot, so when any of them sounds idiotic, I try to construe meanings for what I heard that are not the ones that intuitively strike me.

 

Sometimes it's harder than at other times.

[kenberg]

Absolutely!

[blackshoe]

i don't think the 4th amendment has anything to do with r v. w else prostitution would be legal on a federal level...

AFAIK, working as a prostitute is not per-se illegal under federal law, except as it may occur near military establishments as designated by the Secretaries of the Military Departments (18USC1384).

 

The Tenth Amendment would seem to be germane in this case.

[TimG]

And anyway, won't a terrible teacher who chose to be a teacher probably be terrible at other jobs too?

Perhaps this person will be terrible at many jobs, or perhaps this person will be more suited to another job and be less terrible at it. But, there are jobs that play a less critical role in our society than teaching; I'd rather be inconvenienced by a terrible salesperson than have my child in a classroom with a terrible teacher.

 

Some unrelated public school items:

 

Certification is not required in all school districts, at least not in Maine. Some school districts will hire a teacher on a provisional basis, put a plan in place for certification, and count actual teaching in place of the student teaching requirement. Other school districts require certification before employment.

 

My son is 10 years old and in the 5th grade. The school he attends will be having a mock election soon and they have been discussing some of the issues that might be important. Today's topics seem to have been health care and immigration. He told me that Obama wants everyone to have health insurance, so he's going to raise taxes and give the money to the insurance companies. The immigration discussion apparently involved how best to split the cost of a fence or wall between the US and Mexico between the border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California (said fence being erected because Mexicans are coming to America and taking our jobs). When I asked him how the Mexicans were taking our jobs from Americans, he guessed maybe they were killing people.

 

Last year he came home from a cub scout meeting and told me that he was glad American troops were in Iraq because if they weren't Iraqi soldiers would be in America. If someone has a good way to explain to a 10 year-old why the US is fighting a war in Iraq, please let me know.

 

I was in school to pick my son up yesterday and overheard one teacher tell another about some wonderful boughten frosting. For those of you who are not quite sure, boughten frosting is the frosting that you buy already made as opposed to the kind you make from scratch. Teacher A questioned the use of boughten; Teacher B insisted it was a word. Much to my surprise (and dismay) I later found boughten in Merriam-Webster Online.

[kenberg]

Tim,

 

My first thought on reading your post: Your son is getting started on issues. Good for him. Never mind if it is not the way you want it.

 

I was 11 when the Korean War started. I actually still remember the day the newspaper had the story of the Inchon landing. Big black arrows marking the progress of the troops, cutting off the N Koreans from supplies and escape. I had been following the war daily. I thought of these things as an eleven year old would.

 

My teacher would talk to us about the Red Menace. My mother, otoh, was not exactly a pacifist but very skeptical. One day we had a conversation that went something like this:

 

Mom: Wars are about oil

Me: Mom, I don't think there is any oil in Korea.

Mom: They are fighting there, there is oil there. QED (My mother did not really say things like QED)

 

When my granddaughter was first exposed to the history of World War II, also at around 10 or 11, she told me they were reading soldiers' journals of how the war affected them. I asked her if the subject of Pearl Harbor had come up. No. But she is now 16 and I recently had a substantive discussion with her about the current election.

 

 

The first novel my younger daughter read was Jaws. Maybe not my choice for someone who again was maybe 10 or 11. Otoh, she was reading a novel. The first novel I can remember reading is The Third Man. Probably also not an obvious choice. The chase through the sewers of Vienna stuck with me. Tarzan was a great read also.

 

 

Your son is starting. He will not be voting for a while yet. Relax and enjoy.

 

Teachers are not perfect. A flash: Neither am I.

[helene_t]

probably a suggestion to let someone teach w/o certification is intended to allow for qualified teachers who lack the paperwork to be in the classroom. This is far from the dumbest idea I have ever heard.

I've had many uncertified teachers at primary school and they are generally better than the certified ones. This is also what one would expect since it would be relatively easy to fire an uncertified teacher due to lack of qualifications (uncertified teachers tend not to be in the union).

 

Also it adds to the diversity of the school staff. Having uncertified teachers tends to expose pupils a varied teaching methods and viewpoints.

[kenberg]

Apparently we also must discuss unlicensed plumbers. Apparently Joe the Plumber has no license to practice plumbing, owes the state of Ohio a thousand and change in taxes, makes nowhere near the quarter of a mil that would bring him into Obama's zone of increased taxes, and says that his plans to buy the company are more like aspirations than plans.

I recall four years ago when the big Swift Boater was asked to release his own military records he first said that he couldn't find them and then, when it was pointed out that he could get a new copy, declined to do so because he felt that they might be misinterpreted.

 

OK, I guess it's final, I will be voting for Obama. I have a long standing policy of ignoring any exciting new revelations that swirl up a week or two before the election. Who says we always vote our pocketbook? I have a bet on McCain from last April or so.

[babalu1997]

I've had many uncertified teachers at primary school and they are generally better than the certified ones. This is also what one would expect since it would be relatively easy to fire an uncertified teacher due to lack of qualifications (uncertified teachers tend not to be in the union).

 

Also it adds to the diversity of the school staff. Having uncertified teachers tends to expose pupils a varied teaching methods and viewpoints.

Has anyone ever observed, when taking or teaching a general education requirement class, such as math, or science, or whatever, the education major students are usually the dumbest of them all?

 

Has anyone ever observed that, the people who are phd ed candidates are really trained in other areas?

 

Those who can, do it.

Those who can't, teach

Those who can teach, get a BS degree in education.

[kenberg]

The third debate briefly touched on education in the DC school system. The candidates failed to mention a pilot program that gives payment to students for performance. The first checks came out recently and today the Post ran a story on this program. A sixth grader who had received a check expressed his view: "It don't change nothing". Out of the mouths of babes...

[onoway]

I have heard a slightly different version:

Those who can, do.

Those who can't, teach.

Those who can't teach, teach teachers.

 

It would be interesting to know the reasons why so many people are now opting to homeschool. I always thought my kids would be lucky to get one really good teacher sometime in their school career, and each did. One. (not the same one, we moved a lot.) While the majority of them were competent, there also were several who were truly terrible. To make things worse, the really good ones all left the education system.

 

Surely in this time of instant electronic communication it is time to revamp how education is structured? Now it is possible for kids to get the very best teachers no matter where they are, as far as content is concerned. (Obviously speaking of levels above kindergarten and primary school).

[TimG]

It would be interesting to know the reasons why so many people are now opting to homeschool.

We home schooled for three years. The reason can best be summed up by noting that my daughter gets on the school bus at 6:55 AM and is dropped off at 2:30 PM. The 455 minutes she is gone includes 265 minutes of classroom time (and that includes 50 minutes of "exploratory" classes which will be French one quarter, Industrial Arts one quarter, health one quarter (and I forget the 4th subject)). That's over three hours of riding the bus, homerooms, study halls, gym classes, lunch, etc. -- basically herding -- every day.

[kenberg]

I set out to Kindergarten in the fall of 1943. I brought a rug to nap on and crayons to draw with. We sang. We had recess. We learned to follow directions and to hold up our hands if we had to pee. Class was from 9 to 12, the rest of the day was for play. In first grade we learned to read.

Times have changed! In the best systems they learn a lot, far more than I did, and they start early. My oldest granddaughter, now 16, is taking calculus from a teacher who knows calculus. Since she doesn't much care for math she is just taking regulart calculus instead of the AP course that the serious science students take. I doubt that any teacher in the St. Paul school system in 1955 (when I was 16) could have effectively taught a calculus course, certainly not an AP version. She has already read more Shakespeare than I have or ever will. In some systems however, they learn very little. Many eighth graders know almost nothing.

The biggest difference I see between my schooldays and now is that there is now enormous variance in public schools. Some variance is inevitable and this existed in my day, but today we are far beyond "some". I doubt that this is an easy problem to solve but I regard it as immensely important.