kernow Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 i am english and the germans were right from every perspective - it was Zia who suggested that if it is just not your day one should get it over quick and get on to the next game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 You bring the game into disrepute when you deliberately concede 1100, 1100, 800 and 1400 ... and then walk away!. Is that how we want to teach the youngsters? If you are about to lose, just do like the Germans did!? I don't think that is the way forward, sorry. I also agree that the Germans should be allowed to play on, as there doesn't seem to be a rule to penalise them. However, I am sure that the DBV will take an appropriate action very soon. In fact, I know they will. It can't happen soon enough. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 I think its has to do with lack of respect, for the sport, opps and all the people that are following the game, my suggestion is to ban the pair for some time. Ban them? For what? Have they broken one of the regulations of the tournament? If so, then they might be punished for it. If not, then not. Whether or not you think it's bad manners/bad sportsmanship, it's either legal or it isn't. If it's legal, there should be no punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sudi Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Walking out mid-session is not acceptable in a social home game, it's not acceptable in a club duplicate and it's certainly not acceptable in a world championship semi-final. They should ban the two players involved from international play for a very long time. But not do anything at all with the rest of the German team, in Beijing now or next years Bermuda Bowl. No more words needed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcw Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Whats all the fuss about. If the German's violated a rule they should be punished accordingly, perhaps a ban of the pair involved. I suspect they broke no rules, probably just extremely tired and dissappointed. Walking out is nothing more than plain bad manners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoder Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 I see no reason why a team can't concede in the middle of a match, unless there are some regulations against it that I don't know about. The charge of "bad sportsmanship" should really be about HOW they did it, not that they did it. Any punishment should be on the individual players, not on the team, and it should be mild. I think if the match had not been on the vugraph, the whole incident would have been dealt with by the TD as a concession, the players mildly chastised about their manners, and the opponents glad of the extra rest. So why are we making a big deal about here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Ban them? For what? Ban them for throwing IMPs away deliberately. This is hardly "ethical behaviour", and there is a section where it reads that players must behave ethically correctly at all times. Feel free to think that this behaviour is ethical. I don't think it is. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksk2005 Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 It is interesting that some do see anything wrong with the withdrawl after few very bad scores. I do. However, I agree with those who suggest to ban the pair NOT the team. The ban needs to be a very long one to discourage these types of behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoder Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 You bring the game into disrepute when you deliberately concede 1100, 1100, 800 and 1400 ... and then walk away!. Wait, are you saying that the big score losses were deliberately throwing hands??? They didn't just concede rudely, but threw tricks? If so, that's an entirely different situation, and completely unethical. But that's not what the original post in this thread says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharp01 Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Any law and regulation cannot be retroactive and should not be used "as setting an example". Now, THAT would be highly unethical! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 You bring the game into disrepute when you deliberately concede 1100, 1100, 800 and 1400 ... and then walk away!. Wait, are you saying that the big score losses were deliberately throwing hands??? They didn't just concede rudely, but threw tricks? If so, that's an entirely different situation, and completely unethical. But that's not what the original post in this thread says. I said "threw IMPs" by overbidding intentionally. Same thing. It's unethical in my world. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 You bring the game into disrepute when you deliberately concede 1100, 1100, 800 and 1400 ... and then walk away!. Is that how we want to teach the youngsters? If you are about to lose, just do like the Germans did!? I don't think that is the way forward, sorry. I haven't seen the hands. Were the penalties deliberate? Or were they attempts to win the match - don't forget they were 70+ imps down before the last set started, you'd expect to see some pretty swingy things tried. And there seem to be three different things being discussed. Bad manners? Well, possibly, but a world championship SF is not the same as a social game. In a social game my opponents will be cross if I walk out half way. I doubt the England team were cross that the Germans walked out. Bad manners to the vugraph audience, yes, I agree with that. Bad sportsmanship? No, don't see it. Illegal? As I've said, depends what the regulations say. There are plenty of instances in sport where people are forced to continue playing from an obviously lost (or, in cricket, obviously drawn) position rather than concede. It's never very interesting to watch, and you often think 'if only they could just get it over with'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleksfl Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 If you compare this to other sports this is very strange. No soccerteam has ever left the field in the middle of a game because they have no chance of winning. In chess they only give up in a game (its like giving up a contract in bridge). Never a match. Int championships have changed after BBO. The world is watching, so therefor you should show sportsmanship and finish the match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pelepele Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 As per the guidelines from the conditions of contest http://www.ecatsbridge.com/Documents/files...lConditions.pdf page 11 under the heading Ethics and Deportment It will be for the WBF to determine if the action of the Germans is within the conditions of the contest. The fact that a concession before a set starts is accepted, would appear to be within the accepted norms of the WBF heading Ethics and Deportment. When you play in Team the punishment is for the Team regardless to the actions of any individual player or that other players might have no part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Ban them? For what? Ban them for throwing IMPs away deliberately. Our posts crossed, but that is the first time it's been said in this thread that they threw imps deliberately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotax Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Interesting to see the comments here. Why not kick out Germany from the World Bridge Federation ? None here knows what happened excactly, but Germany must be punished ))))) Beside the fact that both are of non german origin, most likley they have been transformed to "Huns" by Angela Merkel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryallen Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Why is it bad sportsmanship? I would say that, if anything, it is bad sportsmanship to continue playing in a hopeless position. Even when you are a lot up, it is still tiring to continue concentrating and you might think that forcing England to play on, while Italy are having an early night, would be unfair on England. Conceding mid-segment is unusual, but only because there's always the chance that teammates have done something spectacular. My guess from the (lack of) swangames running scores is that Norway conceded against Italy before the last segment started. Is that also bad sportsmanship? I suppose it is bad sportsmanship, but does it really matter. You are allowed to conceed so does it exactly matter the manner in which it was done. I can imagine that some schadenfreude amongst the kibitzer's was missed on the Germans being slowly roasted over the spit for the remaining hands. If concessions are part of the make up of the game when the position becomes impossible, why all the protestations. If you don't like it, get the rules changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdct Posted October 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 LAW 74C8 seems to cover this situation fairly well, "The following are examples of violations of procedure ... leaving the table needlessly before the round is called". There is also the issue of bringing the game into disrepute which, if I recall correctly, came in to play in relation to the infamous "we didn't vote for bush" incident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Ban them? For what? Ban them for throwing IMPs away deliberately. Our posts crossed, but that is the first time it's been said in this thread that they threw imps deliberately. I was there (no surprise), and they definitely did. Wladow overbid deliberately. Unfortunately we don't have it stored in our archives, because the match finished in midstream! There is no doubt in my mind that all commentators and spectators will agree that Wladow lost his temper at some point and bid like a lunatic. You ask Peter Crouch for example (one of the commentators). You know him well, so I am sure you believe him when he says exactly the same. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcleod Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Hi, first of all:its not "the Germans", it is exactly one pair. To be precise, its only one player from this pair. Lets call them Dr. W and Dr. E, or, if appropriate, the Docs. I do think, they shd be punished im some way, but this an internal Affair of the German Bridge Federation, as they did not violate any rules (as far as I know).If there is a rule that has been violated, then the Pair (ideally the player) shd be punished in an appropriate way, maybe by ban, maybe money maybe whatsoever.I agree on that it depends on the manner in whick they left the room. But the leaving itself is imho not to be punished. @Roland#1did the Docs really give away those bad scores _deliberately_? Who says so? Proof? Is it forbidden to have a bad day? @Roland, #2Please stick to the Rules. I feel you are making this very personal and heavy. As you are the official Coordinator of the Vuegraphs on BBO, I expect somewhat more moderate posts. Maybe this expectation is not shared here, then feel free to proceed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerardo Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Ban them? For what? Ban them for throwing IMPs away deliberately. This is hardly "ethical behaviour", and there is a section where it reads that players must behave ethically correctly at all times. Feel free to think that this behaviour is ethical. I don't think it is. Roland Hmmm. Who says it was a deliberate throwing? I'd think (without more info, as I have (nothing)) they had a string of very bad results, considered the match lost, and conceded it (mid-session, which is highly unusual). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleksfl Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Ban them? For what? Ban them for throwing IMPs away deliberately. Our posts crossed, but that is the first time it's been said in this thread that they threw imps deliberately. I was there (no surprise), and they definitely did. Wladow overbid deliberately. Unfortunately we don't have it stored in our archives, because the match finished in midstream! There is no doubt in my mind that all commentators and spectators will agree that Wladow lost his temper at some point and bid like a lunatic. You ask Peter Crouch for example (one of the commentators). You know him well, so I am sure you believe him when he says exactly the same. Roland Deliberatly? Didn't they just try to create crazy swings to get back in the match? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 If you compare this to other sports this is very strange. No soccerteam has ever left the field in the middle of a game because they have no chance of winning. In chess they only give up in a game (its like giving up a contract in bridge). Never a match. In chess, and in snooker, you concede both a game and a match when you cannot win it (e.g. if it is 'best of 11' and you have lost 6 games you don't play on). Admittedly bridge is not quite the same until you are down by more than 24 imps x number of remaining boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleksfl Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 If you compare this to other sports this is very strange. No soccerteam has ever left the field in the middle of a game because they have no chance of winning. In chess they only give up in a game (its like giving up a contract in bridge). Never a match. In chess, and in snooker, you concede both a game and a match when you cannot win it (e.g. if it is 'best of 11' and you have lost 6 games you don't play on). Admittedly bridge is not quite the same until you are down by more than 24 imps x number of remaining boards. Of course. You are right, but I ment: You never give up if you have av theretical chance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 @Roland, #2Please stick to the Rules. I feel you are making this very personal and heavy. As you are the official Coordinator of the Vuegraphs on BBO, I expect somewhat more moderate posts. Maybe this expectation is not shared here, then feel free to proceed. Let me make this clear so that no misunderstanding is possible. I do not speak on behalf of BBO, but on behalf of Roland Wald. Even a vugraph coordinator is allowed to express his personal views I would think. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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