DJNeill Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 Hi all,If you play a 12-14 NT 5-card major natural system, you open a minor with 15-17 balanced. Say you have no special opening (Mexican, or using a specific minor as default) for 18-19 balanced, so that must be tucked in with the natural minor opening. In answering these questions, you may play any treatment you want, and add comments about MP/IMP or vul, if necessary. As South, on the auction:South West North East1C 1D 1S 2D? what would you rebid on these hands? (S-H-D-C order) a) Axx Kxxx x KJTxx b) AQx KQx xxx AQxx c) Axxx Qxx xx AKQx d) Kxx Jxx AKJ Axxx e) Qx Axx KQxx AJxx f) x AQJ xxx KQJxxx g) Axx KQJ KJx ATxx h) Ax KQJx KJx ATxx i) x QJxx AKx KQJxx j) x AQx Kx AQJxxxx k) x AKQ Kx AQJxxx l) xxx Axxx KQx AQx Thanks,Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 weak NT doesn't work very well with 5 card Majors... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 Hi all,If you play a 12-14 NT 5-card major natural system, you open a minor with 15-17 balanced. Say you have no special opening (Mexican, or using a specific minor as default) for 18-19 balanced, so that must be tucked in with the natural minor opening. In answering these questions, you may play any treatment you want, and add comments about MP/IMP or vul, if necessary. As South, on the auction:South West North East1C 1D 1S 2D? what would you rebid on these hands? Thanks,Dan I do not play weak NT with five-card majors however I rebid as follows: a) Axx Kxxx x KJTxx I make a takeout double with this hand suggesting hearts and spade tolerance. I could be a big balanced hand without a diamond stopper. ;) AQx KQx xxx AQxx Double see above comment. c) Axxx Qxx xx AKQx 2♠ with such a pure hand - nothing wasted in the opponent's suit I would object to an upgrade to 3♠. d) Kxx Jxx AKJ Axxx Pass If partner cannot bid again I do not mind defending part-scores with strong balanced hands e) Qx Axx KQxx AJxx Pass even happier to defend if partner cannot bid again. f) x AQJ xxx KQJxxx 2NT Lebensohl showing weakish hand with six clubs g) Axx KQJ KJx ATxx Double then bid 3NT if partner does not show five spades by rebidding them or bidding some number of hearts. If partner does show spades I will show some support. h) Ax KQJx KJx ATxx Double and then bid 3NT if partner does not show hearts. i) x QJxx AKx KQJxx 2♥ double would show some spade tolerance. I would make this bid with a slightly weaker hand too. j) x AQx Kx AQJxxxx 3♣ showing an invitational hand 16-18 or so with six clubs. The seventh club is a bonus but not quite good enough for stronger action IMO. k) x AKQ Kx AQJxxx hmm only 12 cards. Double then 3♣ or 3NT depending on the auction. l) xxx Axxx KQx AQx I don't have this problem. I would be happy to pass with so much wasted in their suit. If partner bids again I am well placed to take further action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 i disagree with free's and cascade's comments about weak nt and 5 card majors... it seems to work quite well... anyway, that's just a matter of philosophy, i think... As South, on the auction:South West North East1C 1D 1S 2D? a) Axx Kxxx x KJTxx first of all, i play that a neg dbl by pard shows both majors, so while his 1♠ bid can be made on a 4 card suit, i'd know he didn't have 4 hearts... with this hand i'd bid 2♠... if west passes, we have ways to show strength/support with responder using asking bids ;) AQx KQx xxx AQxx 2nt, asking partner to bid 3♣... my plan is to bid 3♠... c) Axxx Qxx xx AKQx 3♦ d) Kxx Jxx AKJ Axxx 3nt e) Qx Axx KQxx AJxx 3nt f) x AQJ xxx KQJxxx 3♣ g) Axx KQJ KJx ATxx double then 3nt over 3♣... if pard bids 3♠ i'd go to 4 h) Ax KQJx KJx ATxx double then 3nt over anything i) x QJxx AKx KQJxx 2♥ then probably 3nt j) x AQx Kx AQJxxxx 4♣ k) x AKQ Kx AQJxxx 4♣ l) xxx Axxx KQx AQx double then 2nt over 2♠ if possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 I agree with Lukewarm and Cascade re. marrying 5 card majors in a weak NT.But I go further and open 1NT with 5M332 and 12-14. Not the most popular of treatments and it doesn't always work (no method does). But it takes the pressure off the forcing NT continuations and for all the theoretical weaknesses it does not seem to cost. I usually play in IMP events, mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishovnbg Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 I agree with Lukewarm and Cascade re. marrying 5 card majors in a weak NT.But I go further and open 1NT with 5M332 and 12-14. Not the most popular of treatments and it doesn't always work (no method does). But it takes the pressure off the forcing NT continuations and for all the theoretical weaknesses it does not seem to cost. I usually play in IMP events, mind. I agree too. When I play with Boian(PPilot) weak NT with very wide range (11)12-14(15) we include with success 5 majors there. This allow to use 1NT response as relay and special way of transfering or not suits, depend of hand. You can see this way posted here:http://bridgebase.lunarpages.com/~bridge2/...indpost&p=15461 ---------------------------------------------------------- Misho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 I disagree with those who think 5cM and weak NT are a bad combination. The weakness of 5cM is the badly defined 1m bids, and the weak NT minimizes them, and transforms what would otherwise be the worst bids in the system (highly susceptible to interference as opps can have juice, can be difficult/dangerous to rebid after interference) and turns them into an offensive weapon. It's true that opening strong balanced hands 1m can create rebid problems, too, which I think is the point of Dan's excellent post, but the 1m/balanced hands (not including 18-19) are only half as frequent as with strong NT, and they are a little less likely to be interfered with, due to the opps having less juice on average. I agree with those who open 5M332 1NT. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieS Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Five card majors and a weak NT are incompatable? Gee, tell that to Edgar Kaplin and Alfred Sheinwold, who developed and played a similar system in the late 1950's and early 1960's. What IS incompatable is four card majors and a strong nt. Try playing acol under these conditions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csdenmark Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Five card majors and a weak NT are incompatable? Gee, tell that to Edgar Kaplin and Alfred Sheinwold, who developed and played a similar system in the late 1950's and early 1960's. What IS incompatable is four card majors and a strong nt. Try playing acol under these conditions!Right Charlie - KS also looks very good to me. As a proponent of strong club systems I often wonder why it is so simple to handle KS. Looks like you with the strong openings and narrow bid limits have something like you are a step ahead of the 1♣ opening in fx. Precision. I normally dont pay much attention to the quick trick openings - which might be lighter openings. Maybe the secrecy of the system is the players - seems much disciplined when playing KS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Five card majors and a weak NT are incompatable? Gee, tell that to Edgar Kaplin and Alfred Sheinwold, who developed and played a similar system in the late 1950's and early 1960's. What IS incompatable is four card majors and a strong nt. Try playing acol under these conditions! Don't the Hacketts play 4 card majors and a strong(ish) NT (14-16)? They do alright. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Don't the Hacketts play 4 card majors and a strong(ish) NT (14-16)? Sort of. They only open 4 card Ms with weak hands, (10-13), and these can be canape. However 5 card Ms, weak NT works well. Agree with the monocled one that 5332 with 5M in 12-14 range should also be opened 1N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Don't the Hacketts play 4 card majors and a strong(ish) NT (14-16)? Sort of. They only open 4 card Ms with weak hands, (10-13), and these can be canape. However 5 card Ms, weak NT works well. Agree with the monocled one that 5332 with 5M in 12-14 range should also be opened 1N. Thanks for clarifying that. Even so, as long as your 2/1 bids are kept fairly strong (eg 11+) so 2NT rebid can show 12-13, I don't see too much problem with playing true 4 card majors (non-canape) and a 14-16 NT. Certainly not enough to call them incompatible. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Don't the Hacketts play 4 card majors and a strong(ish) NT (14-16)? Sort of. They only open 4 card Ms with weak hands, (10-13), and these can be canape. However 5 card Ms, weak NT works well. Agree with the monocled one that 5332 with 5M in 12-14 range should also be opened 1N. Thanks for clarifying that. Even so, as long as your 2/1 bids are kept fairly strong (eg 11+) so 2NT rebid can show 12-13, I don't see too much problem with playing true 4 card majors (non-canape) and a 14-16 NT. Certainly not enough to call them incompatible. Eric I should have added the Hacketts play a semi forcing NT to 1M - up to about 11(-12). Their 2/1 is GF with one exception - 2C over 1M which can also be a 9-11 3 card raise. Also because of the style they play 1C 1? 1S shows a good hand, else would have opened 1S. CheersRon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badderzboy Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 When playing ACOL with 4 Card majors, by bidding up the line with 4-4 then over 90% of the time you do have a 5 Card major or a balanced hand with a NT rebid. As a rule of thumb I compete pre-emptively as though partner has 5 anyway as per Robson/Seagal. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 I play 10-12 NT and 12-14 NT, depending on seat and Vul. And I open this with any 5 card major, that's big part of the weak NT. I f you going to play wk NT but you won't open it with a 5 card major why even play it ? And as for the hands you gave, most of them you can handle very well with Support X. And if you can't handle simple hands like that, maybe weak NT not something for you. Mike B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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