More "mystery" doubles?

[awm]

1♣ - P - 1♥ - P

1N - P - P - X

 

1♣ - P - 1♥ - P

2♣ - P - P - X

[han]

1. Penalty.

 

2. takeout of clubs (with hearts).

[gnasher]

1. Flawed takeout

 

2. What Han said.

[Echognome]

1. Penalty. The rule being doubles are penalty if one side bids NT naturally, with noted exceptions.*

 

2. Takeout. I.e. I agree with the above two posters.

 

* Exceptions (among others) as I have agreed them with partners are:

(1X) - P - (1N) - Dbl = takeout

1N - (2X) - Dbl = takeout

(1X) - 1N - (2X) - Dbl = takeout

 

I'm sure there are a few others I'm forgetting, but I prefer to start with that rule and list exceptions than work in another way.

 

Edit: This comes from a broader set of rules that starts with

 

Doubles are for takeout except... and one of those exceptions is the one above.

 

Doubles are complicated! <_<

[gwnn]

(1x)-1y-(1NT)-X is one of the basic (and useful) exceptions of Matt's rule

[awm]

Assuming that 1♣-P-1♥-1NT and 1♣-P-1♥-2♥ and 1♣-P-1♥-2♣ would be natural, exactly what hand would you expect for the first double if it's penalty?

 

I'm having trouble constructing an example here.

[han]

14-count with 5 strong hearts?

[kfay]

1. Penalty.

 

2. takeout of clubs (with hearts).

Yes.

[pclayton]

The 2nd one is easy - its takeout.

 

The 1st one is tougher. I'm having a real hard time constructing any hand that wants to penalize 1N that sits silent over 1♥, so it should be takeout of clubs.

 

By the way, if we are in a position to penalize 1N, a takeout double of clubs (with some hearts) is precisely the kind of hand to do it. Imagine we have some sort of 4=5=3=1 12 count and pard has a 3=1=4=5 12 count. Neither of us can act on the 1st round, and yet we are crushing 1N.

[gking]

1 - Penalty with heart lead requested

 

2- Takeout, most often with short clubs

[benlessard]

2nd is clear take-out of clubs, something like a good 4432/3442 is probably the most frequent hand.

 

1st is clear penalty in imps with good hearts (nothing mysterious here). But in MP its might make sense to use it as a flawed take-out depending on the vulnerability.

[benlessard]

2nd is clear take-out of clubs, something like a good 4432/3442 is probably the most frequent hand.

 

1st is clear penalty in imps with good hearts (nothing mysterious here). But in MP its might make sense to use it as a flawed take-out depending on the vulnerability since you wont get rich defending 1NT if they are white.

[Finch]

1. Penalties

2. Take-out of clubs, more likely to be 3=5 in the majors than 4=4

 

Assuming that 1♣-P-1♥-1NT and 1♣-P-1♥-2♥ and 1♣-P-1♥-2♣ would be natural, exactly what hand would you expect for the first double if it's penalty?

 

about 13-16 (depending on how strong 1NT was) usually with 4 or 5 decent hearts. Not a 1NT overcall the first round because too weak and/or nothing in clubs; not a 2H bid the first round which usually has 6 hearts.

 

I've gone for a couple of horrible penalties on that auction as the 1NT bidder, it's a good way to gain points.

[Apollo81]

(1) is a "do what's right" double. It shows a good hand with heart strength over responder's suit and shortish clubs. Partner can take it out, or pass 1NTx. Even if the HCP are evenishly split, 1NT will often be down multiple tricks on this auction due to the good positioning of the high cards and suit lengths for the defense.