Penalty pass at one level

[TimG]

This question is prompted by a thread in rgb. A poster there asserted that it would be routine to pass after 1D-(1H)-P-(P); DBL-(p) with heart holdings such as AQTx or AQJ8 (and an otherwise suitable values). The conditions were MP, red v red.

 

While I can probably construct hands were passing with only four trumps is indicated, I would think it far from routine. And, if I were to set up a simulation, I would start with the premise that the penalty passer held five (or six) hearts.

 

Am I out in left field here? I tend to be more inclined than most to try for a penalty, but defending their likely 8-card fit seems far from routine to me.

[Apollo81]

It's normal to have 5 trumps for a 1-level penalty pass, but you can construct hands that should do it on 4.

[helene_t]

The holy lott says six trumps: you assume p has one and we don't let the opponents play at the level of their fit.

[jdonn]

Experts say generally not to, but....

- If you pass with four, LHO may raise and then you get to double a level higher!

- If partner is a minimum with some length in their suit, you have a good chance at an undoubled 200 or more.

 

So I think it may not be a bad idea to pass on those hands and go for it, depending on the hand of course.

[TimG]

Experts say generally not to, but....

- If you pass with four, LHO may raise and then you get to double a level higher!

- If partner is a minimum with some length in their suit, you have a good chance at an undoubled 200 or more.

 

So I think it may not be a bad idea to pass on those hands and go for it, depending on the hand of course.

Yes, good things can happen when you lurk in the weeds -- sort of like on the auction 1x-DBL, if you pass you may get a chance to penalize at a higher level than you would had you warned them with a redouble -- but that doesn't mean that when you pass initially with four trumps and none of those good things happen, that you will always want to convert opener's reopening double. The reopening double may itself warn you against defending because of opener's now announced shortness.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't feel compelled to take action after 1D-(1H) with a balanced invitation (or less) with length in their suit. Passing and awaiting developments might be a good course of action. But, balanced or unbalanced, you wouldn't trap pass with a GF hand and four good trumps, would you? Because, as you say, when opener has a minimum with some length in their suit, you may end up playing for 100 per undertrick.

 

I'm not trying to argue with you, just talk it through so I better understand.

[jdonn]

Experts say generally not to, but....

- If you pass with four, LHO may raise and then you get to double a level higher!

- If partner is a minimum with some length in their suit, you have a good chance at an undoubled 200 or more.

 

So I think it may not be a bad idea to pass on those hands and go for it, depending on the hand of course.

Yes, good things can happen when you lurk in the weeds -- sort of like on the auction 1x-DBL, if you pass you may get a chance to penalize at a higher level than you would had you warned them with a redouble -- but that doesn't mean that when you pass initially with four trumps and none of those good things happen, that you will always want to convert opener's reopening double. The reopening double may itself warn you against defending because of opener's now announced shortness.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't feel compelled to take action after 1D-(1H) with a balanced invitation (or less) with length in their suit. Passing and awaiting developments might be a good course of action. But, balanced or unbalanced, you wouldn't trap pass with a GF hand and four good trumps, would you? Because, as you say, when opener has a minimum with some length in their suit, you may end up playing for 100 per undertrick.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just talk it through so I better understand.

Yes when I say depending on the hand, one negative factor in deciding to do so would be if you are good enough for game opposite a minimum balanced opener. I didn't explicitely say so, but my second point sort of implied it since I was hinting that you do this if your +200 would actually be a good thing.

 

As for the RGB thread, I would certainly not call passing with those trump holdings routine. It is the exception if anything.