effervesce Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 East opens 2♠, a 5 card 8-11HCP hand. Do you overcall 3♥ with [hv=d=e&v=b&s=sa65ha95432d72cat]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 I vote pass. Just too risky for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 bidding here is so sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 Bidding here could work out very well or very badly. If it catches partner with a fair hand and a fit, we will make a game that may well be missed if I pass. Against that, if partner has a poor hand we will go for a telephone number with opponents unable to make anything. I will pass, but will admit that it is close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 pass, but i think it is close. Given that 2S is constr., pass is certainly the smarter choice. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 I'd need the heart Jack to bid. The 1098 would tempt me. As it is, I'm not interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 Didn't we start with xxx in spades and the Ace of diamonds? :D Anyway, with 3 cards in spades I pass. With the same heart suit and a doubleton spade I will happily overcall 3♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 I'm out. If partner can't double, it is relatively unlikely we can make game. Going for a number here opposite nothing is also a very real possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 All defense; little offense. Pass. The fact that you have a Fantoni-esque 'weak' 2 is even greater cause for concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 3♥. Pass seems rather conservative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 With three defensive tricks and an empty suit, I'm a passer. I'm fully aware we might miss a game, but the downside is too great, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulven Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 I'm a bidder. But then I generally overcall a lot more on the 2 and 3-level than the vast majority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 I'm a bidder. I don't call three aces "lots of defence and little offence" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Isn't anyone impacted by the description of 2♠? It slightly reduces partner's expect heart length, and strength, relative to a "normal" weak 2. I should say I see some people considered that. What about the bidders, maybe someone didn't notice? The thread title is a bit deceiving, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Isn't anyone impacted by the description of 2♠? It slightly reduces partner's expect heart length, and strength, relative to a "normal" weak 2. I should say I see some people considered that. What about the bidders, maybe someone didn't notice? The thread title is a bit deceiving, after all. I am not sure how it should affect our choice. - Overcalling 3♥ is more dangerous, it is easier for LHO to double. + We may miss game more easily. With 3 spades partner will pass with many hands where game is good. I think - is worth more IMPs than +. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcurt Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Why is everyone hating the heart suit so much? Which has a greater trick expectation integrated over partner's possible hands -- the hand we hold, or Axx, KJ976x, xx, Ax? I think they are about the same in the heart suit, and having the trump ace gives us more possible lines of play in how we handle the offsuits. Also, the argument that the opponents can double us more readily with the 2♠ method they used cuts both ways. Partner also has to be cautious balancing -- and he has zero or one aces and therefore much more reason to fear conceding a big penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Isn't anyone impacted by the description of 2♠? It slightly reduces partner's expect heart length, and strength, relative to a "normal" weak 2. I should say I see some people considered that. What about the bidders, maybe someone didn't notice? The thread title is a bit deceiving, after all. Not being a tooth, I wouldn't describe myself as being impacted, but yes, I was aware of the description when I made my choice. Had it been a normal weak two, I would have used a stronger word for the pass than "conservative". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Not being a tooth, I wouldn't describe myself as being impacted. However you could only be impacted if you had wisdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Why is everyone hating the heart suit so much? Which has a greater trick expectation integrated over partner's possible hands -- the hand we hold, or Axx, KJ976x, xx, Ax? In hearts? THIS ONE! Meaning, your example suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcurt Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Why is everyone hating the heart suit so much? Which has a greater trick expectation integrated over partner's possible hands -- the hand we hold, or Axx, KJ976x, xx, Ax? In hearts? THIS ONE! Meaning, your example suit. Give partner ♥xx. Let's analyze a 4-1 break with ♥AQ offside (you can put the ♥T onside stiff if you like). The bad guys are going to make two trump tricks on power and probably will tap you out to make a long one. If the hearts split 3-2 with length over you, you need two honors tight onside to do better than I will with ace-empty-sixth. Plus, having the ace is just huge on a hand like this since we can control the number of rounds of trumps taken out. Often that's worth at least one trick in the play. You can go through a bunch of these analyses, or you can just consider that the longer the suit, the more the relative rank of the ace versus the king, and the less the relative value of the secondary honors and high spots versus the low spots. I still like overcalling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Why is everyone hating the heart suit so much? Which has a greater trick expectation integrated over partner's possible hands -- the hand we hold, or Axx, KJ976x, xx, Ax? In hearts? THIS ONE! Meaning, your example suit. Give partner ♥xx. Let's analyze a 4-1 break with ♥AQ offside (you can put the ♥T onside stiff if you like). The bad guys are going to make two trump tricks on power and probably will tap you out to make a long one. If the hearts split 3-2 with length over you, you need two honors tight onside to do better than I will with ace-empty-sixth. Plus, having the ace is just huge on a hand like this since we can control the number of rounds of trumps taken out. Often that's worth at least one trick in the play. You can go through a bunch of these analyses, or you can just consider that the longer the suit, the more the relative rank of the ace versus the king, and the less the relative value of the secondary honors and high spots versus the low spots. I still like overcalling. What the heck is the point of this? What if instead of offside they are....wait for it....onside! What if partner has Q or Qx or Qxx? Your last paragraph looks like it says "you can think, or you can live by cliches". I'll take the first option thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcurt Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 What the heck is the point of this? What if instead of offside they are....wait for it....onside! What if partner has Q or Qx or Qxx? Your last paragraph looks like it says "you can think, or you can live by cliches". I'll take the first option thanks! The point is.....wait for it.....that you're maybe a fraction of a trick better, if at all. And you might be worse. Here's another seeming paradox. It might be better to have ♥Axxxxx than ♥AJxxxx. Why? Because if the opponents have 5 hearts including the K, Q, J, and T, they're making the same number of heart tricks on play in spades as they are on defense against hearts.* If they are missing some of the interior spots, they might not be able to play the suit for tricks on play, but they'll make the same number of heart tricks on defense -- the number of trumps in their longer hand, less one. So you get better Law protection with the emptier suit, since it's less likely to be a Law failure hand. I agree with other posters that passing could miss game. I don't agree with other posters that we're getting crushed as often as they think we are. So by arguments others made previously we should be in this auction. And if you read anything else I posted, you know prefer what you called the "thinking" option. * -- unless there is a cut or the defense can cut off the dummy against spades when the long heart is there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 I'll butt-in. The reason is pard, though short in spades, might also be short in hearts and might be stuck for a bid. yeah, it's a bit sick. But I gotta do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effervesce Posted October 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 I'll butt-in. The reason is pard, though short in spades, might also be short in hearts and might be stuck for a bid. yeah, it's a bit sick. But I gotta do it. That's what I thought too. I really hated having to bid 3♥, but on the same reasoning I bid anyway. Partner responded 3NT, and we got smashed for 1100. The whole hand: [hv=d=e&v=n&n=skt7hkdkt9843c872&w=s93hqt86daqcqj643&e=sqj842hj7dj65ck95&s=sa65ha95432d72cat]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Anyway-I'm passing these hands in the future (I know I know, what kind of Aussie player passes :) ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 I conveniently waited until I knew the whole hand. I pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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