Acol advice

[paulg]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=st9xhaxxdxckjxxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

        1♥   (2♦)

?[/hv]

A hand from the club's league match last night that is very system specific, but everyone plays the same system so they all had the problem!

 

You are playing 4-card majors, weak 1NT and you open a 4-card minor before a 4-card major.

 

What do you advise when they ask you about it?

 

Comments like 'play 5-card majors' tend to get short shrift from club members

[gwnn]

everyone opens a 4cm before a 4cM?

[paulg]

everyone opens a 4cm before a 4cM?

Scottish standard.

[Walddk]

2♥, can't think of an alternative.

 

Roland

[hotShot]

This is a typical 4cM problem and of cause you need partnership agreement how to handle this.

 

You partner (opener) could have:

1) a strong (semi)balanced hand with 4+♥.

2) an unbalanced hand with hearts somewhere between minimum and maximum strength.

 

In the first case he's strong enough to make 2M with 7 trumps and in the 2nd case you will have 8 trumps. According to he Law of total tricks you should be save in 2M.

 

Your agreement could be one of these (and I am sure there are more):

 

1) dbl showing 3 card support in partners suit (with strength for at least a simple raise), 2♥ shows 4 card support

2) 2♥ shows 3 card+ support, dbl is without fit and of invitational+ strength.

[andy_h]

2♥, can't think of an alternative.

 

Roland

ditto

[MickyB]

2♥ - not quite good enough to double.

[helene_t]

Scottish Acol is effectively 5-card majors. So 2♥ wtp.

 

In English Acol it would be a little less obvious but I would still bid 2♥.

[helene_t]

(sr double post)

[kfay]

I support with support.

[Walddk]

Scottish Acol is effectively 5-card majors.

What? In that case it has changed. Between 1999 and 2005 I played regularly in Scotland (club games, league games, congresses), and 5-card majors were the exception to the rule.

 

To check if there has been changes to Acol in Scotland, I asked Jim Patrick, editor of the Scottish Bridge News. "No" was the short answer. To illustrate his point he showed me the conditions for the Bidding Contest in the SBU News.

 

"The basic system is modern Acol with a weak no-trump (12-14), 4-card majors and weak twos in the majors."

 

They would not use that system if it isn't what the average club player is familiar with.

 

Roland

[Wackojack]

Playing this version of Acol, partner has either:

Balanced 15-19HCP 3433, 4432 or 4423 or Unbalanced 5+♥ from min opener up to less than Acol 2 in strength.

2♥ looks like the right response as double would show 4♠s and the hand is too weak for a forcing 3♣. Partner with around 17-19 points balanced with a ♦ stop could try 2NT confirming a 4 card major. You now have a difficult choice (as with any other system) Feeling lucky that you can get clubs going or not determines your next bid.

 

If you play (i believe) the more normal style and open a 4 card major if you have one with a balanced 15-19, 2♥ still looks like the best bid.

[Ant590]

Scottish Acol is effectively 5-card majors.

What? In that case it has changed. Between 1999 and 2005 I played regularly in Scotland (club games, league games, congresses), and 5-card majors were the exception to the rule.

 

To check if there has been changes to Acol in Scotland, I asked Jim Patrick, editor of the Scottish Bridge News. "No" was the short answer. To illustrate his point he showed me the conditions for the Bidding Contest in the SBU News.

 

"The basic system is modern Acol with a weak no-trump (12-14), 4-card majors and weak twos in the majors."

 

They would not use that system if it isn't what the average club player is familiar with.

 

Roland

I think what Helene meant was that by opening the minor in 4m4M hands you raise the expectation of an 1♥ opening to 4.8 or so, so you're effectively playing 5 card majors. David Collier wrote about this in his blog a while back I seem to recall.

[paulg]

Scottish Acol is effectively 5-card majors. So 2♥ wtp.

 

In English Acol it would be a little less obvious but I would still bid 2♥.

I'm not quite as forthright when I tease the locals, but I do say that bidding 4-card minors before 4-card majors is the final step to playing a 5-card major system. As Roland implies though, it will be many moons before they all take this leap and they really dislike the thought of playing anything except Acol.

 

And I appear to be out of line on this problem as I think this hand is really a bit too good for 2♥. Playing 5-card majors I would be showing an 8-loser hand and supporting at the 3-level and, despite the total lack of support, I'm tempted to do the same under these system conditions.

 

Paul

[helene_t]

Thanks Ant, yes that's what I mean. I should have been clearer.

[MickyB]

And I appear to be out of line on this problem as I think this hand is really a bit too good for 2♥. Playing 5-card majors I would be showing an 8-loser hand and supporting at the 3-level and, despite the total lack of support, I'm tempted to do the same under these system conditions.

If that's the case, why not start with a double instead? Intending to raise 2H to three.

[Walddk]

The problem with double is that we don't have four spades. You will get 2♠ whenever he has 4-5 in the majors and a minimum, and when he is 4-4 and outside his notrump range.

 

With 3-3 in the majors you can never have more spades than hearts between you, but you could have eight or more hearts. So if you get 2♠, it's not safe at all to follow up with 3♥ in a 4-card major system.

 

The price you must pay for playing 4-card majors is that you respond 2♥ with this hand although you don't know if you have a fit.

 

It is true that 1♥ is often five cards if you bid 4-card suits up the line, but it is not when he has 4-4 in the majors or 3433. If he opens 1♠, however, it's a 5-card suit 95 times out of 100, because it can only be four with specifically 4333 (roughly 5%).

 

Roland

[skjaeran]

2♥ for me.

Can't see any reasonable alternative.

[1eyedjack]

2h for me, and I am not really looking for an alternative.

[Cascade]

Close between double and then raise showing a limit raise strength with only three-card support and making a simple raise.

 

In this style double wouldn't promise four spades. If double does promise four spades then you need to have another way to show the hand with three-card support - cue or just bid a new suit first. I am not bidding 3♣ as that will be effectively Game Forcing.

[EricK]

Partner has suggested Hearts as a trump suit. I am happy with hearts as a trump suit. 2♥ sends this message. If partner is interested in game, he can find out more about my hand before committing to a heart contract if he so wishes.

 

WTP?

[MickyB]

If you consider this hand too strong to bid 2H, then it's (in part) because you are happy to be in game opposite 15-16 balanced. If pard bids 2S, we go back to 3H, and he'll know what to do from there.

 

As I said before, it's a slight overevaluation of the hand, but still - not ridiculous.

[paulg]

Everyone on the team bid 2♥ without thinking it was a problem, so they will be happy with this thread.

 

But they would also have bid 2♥ holding

 

♠Qxx

♥Kxxx

♦xxx

♣Jxx

 

This is why I think it is not a wtp hand and prefer Mike's double. (In much club bridge you hesitate with the initial hand to distinguish between these hands, but I am giving a good thrashing to the team members who do this).

 

Paul

[Walddk]

But they would also have bid 2♥ holding

 

♠Qxx

♥Kxxx

♦xxx

♣Jxx

True, Paul, but that goes for all raises. Different hand types. If 1MA-3MA is limit, you would raise 1♠ to 3 with ...

 

♠ Axxx

♥ Kxx

♦ Qxx

♣ Qxx

 

as well as ...

 

♠ KJxx

♥ x

♦ Axxxx

♣ xxx

 

You can't distinguish between the two hands (balanced/shapely), as is the case with a single raise in this thread.

 

Roland

[helene_t]

If dbl shows 3-card support, how do you find a 4-4 fit in spades? My guess is that with 15+ balanced and 4-4 majors opener responds 2♠ to the double, which is a sort of reverse. Wouldn't work for those who play 4cM with strong NT, obviously.