Stayman sequence

[nige1]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=skj107h987da98c652]133|100|Scoring: IMP

Your expert partner opens 1nt [15-17] as dealer at IMPs/red and I'll force a 2 ♣ stayman bid on your hand.  Partner responds 2 ♥, which does not deny spades.

What is your next bid if you had to pick from the 3 options given and why?[/hv]

IMO 2♠ = 10, 2N = 6.

If partner has 4 ♠ as well as 4 ♥ then he has a doubleton so ♠ is likely to be worth an extra trick and may be safer.

[InTime]

Whatever system you play (4s transfers or not), 1NT - 2C - 2H - 2S should indicate invitational and 4 spades, 1NT - 2C - 2H - 2NT invitational without 4 spades and 1NT - 2C - 2H - 3NT game-going values with 4 spades. Otherwise you would have bid 1NT - 3NT and get it over with. This is if you don't play 2S/2NT as a sort of conventional bid as previously discussed. This makes it simple strait forward bridge (Why play in 2NT when you have a 4-4 fit in spades?, why give opposition more information by playing around?). Therefore I strongly feel in standard bridge 2S is the correct bid.

[ochinko]

Psyches aside, I don't see why one would go through Stayman without a 4CM, so 2NT clearly invites with 4 spades, the same way as 3NT gives opener the chance to pass or correct to 4♠.

 

As for the unused 2♠ bid I would prefer it to be a minor suit Stayman with a strong enough hand to search for a slam.

[mike777]

Psyches aside, I don't see why one would go through Stayman without a 4CM, so 2NT clearly invites with 4 spades, the same way as 3NT gives opener the chance to pass or correct to 4♠.

 

It allows you to play:

 

1nt=2c

2any=3c or 3d as natural and game force. NOw opener can show other values at a low level.

 

It also allows you to play 1nt=2nt as something other than natural and invite.

 

For me relay to 3c as either sign off in clubs or 3suited slam try..

[InTime]

1nt=2c

2h=2s invite with 4 spades.

 

1nt=2c

2d=2s=invite with 4h and 5s.

 

 

1nt=2c

2d=2nt invite, may or maynot have 4 card major.

For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit.

If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values.

[ArtK78]

For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit.

If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values.

You are playing Garbage Stayman. That is not uncommon, but it is not standard, and you should not assume that your partner is playing it.

[InTime]

For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit.

If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values.

You are playing Garbage Stayman. That is not uncommon, but it is not standard, and you should not assume that your partner is playing it.

If you play transfers, this should be standard. It cannot be invitational or GF. If invitational or GF you should use transfers. Not playing transfers, this sequence is invitational. According to me nothing to do with Garbage Stayman.

[mike777]

1nt=2c

2h=2s invite with 4 spades.

 

1nt=2c

2d=2s=invite with 4h and 5s.

 

 

1nt=2c

2d=2nt invite, may or maynot have 4 card major.

For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit.

If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values.

I am not quite sure what you are playing here. What is the auction?

 

 

 

 

"For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit."

 

what are you biddding with weak hands? You start with 2d?

 

1nt=2d

2h=2s is weak, signoff with 5h and 4s? what does opener rebid with 2-2 in the majors? or 3h and 2s?

 

As for this auction, again not sure what you are saying:

 

 

 

"If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values"

 

 

1nt=2h

2s=2nt

?

 

now what does opener do with 4h and two spades?

You play in 3s if opener has a minimum with 3s spades rather than 2s spades?

[BillHiggin]

If you have no more detailed agreements than 4 suit transfers (such as a pickup or very occasional partnership) then the expected meaning after 1N 2♣; 2♥ is 2♠ shows invite hand with 4 spades and 2N denies 4 spades.

 

If you have more detailed agreements, then you look to those.

 

If you want a set of agreements similar to 4 suit transfers that do not involve the "Stayman might be balanced invite with no major" issue, consider:

3♣ as transfer to ♦ either weak or GF

2N as transfer to ♣ either weak or GF

2♠ as either bal invite with no major or invite with some long minor. 2N rebid shows min and responder may correct to long minor. 3m rebid shows extras with poor (subject to agreement) doubleton.

Note that you may need to find an alternative for whatever you used 1N 3♣ to show.

[P_Marlowe]

For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit.

If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values.

You are playing Garbage Stayman. That is not uncommon, but it is not standard, and you should not assume that your partner is playing it.

If you play transfers, this should be standard. It cannot be invitational or GF. If invitational or GF you should use transfers. Not playing transfers, this sequence is invitational. According to me nothing to do with Garbage Stayman.

Just one comment: Playing French Standard

 

1NT - 2C

2D - 2M

 

2M showes an inv. hand with 5-4, because in French

Standard hands with 5-4 in majors go via stayman,

end of discussion.

 

Of course you can only play this, if you dont play

Garbage Stayman, and it maybe to much to give

up for the adv. that you can distinguish hands with

inv. / gameforcing strength and 5-4 / 5-5 in the

majors.

 

So the point in discussion has alot to do with (not)

playing Garbage Stayman.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Playing a strong NT, there is no real need to play

Garbage Stayman at all, you can do it, but you dont

need to.

[InTime]

Sorry guys! It seems I opened a whole can of worms here. Garbage Stayman to me is where you bid 2C after partner opens 1NT and pass any reply opener makes.

So, if your answers to 2C is normal, then it should be able to fit in with any system.

If your partnership understanding is that 2C is at least invitational, then you cannot play what I am suggesting. I am playing normal stayman and transfers and my 2C is not necessarily invitational (can be also weak). With a 5-card major, I will go via transfers.

I think that is where all the confusion started.

Everything you do is anyway by partnership understanding.

Rest my case.

[helene_t]

I am confused. I thought it was "standard" that 2NT shows four spades while 2♠ is an idle bid to be defined by partnership (with one p I play it as invitational with five+ spades, with another p as weak with 4 spades and longer minor, with a 3rd p we play 4-way transfers so 2♠ now shows a natural 2NT response to 1NT).

 

Is it normal in North America that 2♠ shows an invitational hand with four spades? In that case I suppose I have to bid that.

It frees up 1NT - 2NT for bigger and better things.

Sure, but there are other ways to handle this. In the Netherlands they use

1NT-2♣

2♥-2♠*

to show the invitational hand without a 4-card major. Another solution which I play with one partner I play that

1NT-2♣

2♥*

denies spades.

 

Anyway, I am not arguing that

1NT-2♣

2♥-2♠*

showing an invitational hand with four spades is inferior, just wondered if it was considered standard, as it sounds exotic to me. But maybe I am the one who is exotic.

[InTime]

1nt=2c

2h=2s invite with 4 spades.

 

1nt=2c

2d=2s=invite with 4h and 5s.

 

 

1nt=2c

2d=2nt invite, may or maynot have 4 card major.

For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit.

If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values.

I only now see that I made a typing error and that is also probably where all the confusion started.

What I meant was 1NT - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ will be a signoff in my system. I left out the 2♣

If you play 2♣ as at least invitational, you cannot use the above.

Because of this my previous msg does not made sense and therefore all the questions.

Regards

[Finch]

Anyway, I am not arguing that

1NT-2♣

2♥-2♠*

showing an invitational hand with four spades is inferior, just wondered if it was considered standard, as it sounds exotic to me. But maybe I am the one who is exotic.

Soon after I started playing with someone who is now my regular partner, we had the auction

 

1NT - 2♣

2♥ - 2♠

P

 

I thought 2♠ was forcing, showing an invitational hand with 4+ spades, and I thought this was standard given that we were using 2NT as a transfer to diamonds.

 

He thought that was being a bit exotic.

[mike777]

i am not even going to ask how an invite hand can be forcing at top level bridge.

 

If you say it is ok...

[gwnn]

I think she meant "invitational+".

[Finch]

I did

[mike777]

"He thought that was being a bit exotic".

 

 

if 2s is inv+ what does that mean?.....is 2s forcing or not?

 

I am guessing I cannot pass 2s but....?

 

ok this sounds exotic and I am confused.

[gwnn]

You can bid it on a 25 count. Do you think that bid is forcing or non forcing?

[helene_t]

I don't see why 2♠ should be forcing if it shows four spades. A GF hand would bid either 3NT or 3m, which does show four spades, regardless of what 2N shows or denies.

 

OK, a hand that wants to bid a quantitative 4N but with four spades should maybe bid 2♠ first. But it kinda defeats the purpose of playing 2♠ as natural, I think.

 

A related issue: is

1NT-2♣

2♥-3m*

forcing? Although it is (or at least used to be) nonforcing in (at least) some beginners' textbooks in the Netherlands, I think the standard interpretation is natural GF with four spades. But if one does not play 4-way transfers or something similar, I can imagine using 3m via 2♠ to show such a hand.

 

Oh well, this is probably academic, in practice players who don't play 4-way or similar won't have such detailed agreements about Stayman.

[ArtK78]

There seems to be some confusion as to a fairly common treatment of the 2♠ rebid being discussed in this thread.

 

In North America, if a partnership plays that 1NT-2NT is something other than an invitational notrump bid (such as four-suit transfers, where 2NT is a transfer to diamonds), there has to be a substitute for the invitational notrump sequence. The substitute is to bid Stayman first. However, there also has to be a way to distinguish between an invitational hand with 4 spades and one without 4 spades.

 

So, if the auction begins 1NT - 2♣ - 2♥

 

Each partner might have 4 spades on this auction. With a game forcing hand, responder bids 3NT. Since he would not have bid Stayman with game forcing values without 4 cards in a major, the 4-4 spade fit will not be lost, as opener will correct to 4♠.

 

However, if responder has invitational values, he bids 2♠ with 4 spades and 2NT without 4 spades. Opener will either pass 2♠ with a fit and a non-acceptance, correct to 2NT with a minimum and no fit, bid 3NT or bid 3♠ invitational or 4♠ to play; or, if responder bid 2NT, opener will pass or bid 3NT.

 

This is a common, but not universal, method used when the partnership plays 2NT as something other than a natural and invitational response to 1NT.

[InTime]

There seems to be some confusion as to a fairly common treatment of the 2♠ rebid being discussed in this thread.

 

In North America, if a partnership plays that 1NT-2NT is something other than an invitational notrump bid (such as four-suit transfers, where 2NT is a transfer to diamonds), there has to be a substitute for the invitational notrump sequence. The substitute is to bid Stayman first. However, there also has to be a way to distinguish between an invitational hand with 4 spades and one without 4 spades.

 

So, if the auction begins 1NT - 2♣ - 2♥

 

Each partner might have 4 spades on this auction. With a game forcing hand, responder bids 3NT. Since he would not have bid Stayman with game forcing values without 4 cards in a major, the 4-4 spade fit will not be lost, as opener will correct to 4♠.

 

However, if responder has invitational values, he bids 2♠ with 4 spades and 2NT without 4 spades. Opener will either pass 2♠ with a fit and a non-acceptance, correct to 2NT with a minimum and no fit, bid 3NT or bid 3♠ invitational or 4♠ to play; or, if responder bid 2NT, opener will pass or bid 3NT.

 

This is a common, but not universal, method used when the partnership plays 2NT as something other than a natural and invitational response to 1NT.

:) Thanks. This sums it up nicely. I fully agree with this. Just keep your stayman sequences simple and strait forward.

I must just add:

If responder has slam going values and the other major (in this case 4 spades), he simply bids his best minor on the 3 level. This is 100% forcing and indicates the other major. In this way nothing can be missed.

Again, that is now if your system allows for it.

It seems there is a sort of "Standard" for each country in the world.

It just amazes me how much can be written about this topic.

[Finch]

Just keep your stayman sequences simple and strait forward.

 

I must just add:

 

If responder has slam going values and the other major (in this case 4 spades), he simply bids his best minor on the 3 level. This is 100% forcing and indicates the other major.

 

Simple and straightforward? Now we have an almost artificial 3m bid over 2H to indicate a slam try with four spades, how is that simple and straightforward? I would have thought that playing 1NT - 2C - 2H - 2S as natural and forcing is considerably simpler than that.

 

How lucky I am that I don't actually play Stayman any more...

[jdonn]

Just keep your stayman sequences simple and strait forward.

 

I must just add:

 

If responder has slam going values and the other major (in this case 4 spades), he simply bids his best minor on the 3 level. This is 100% forcing and indicates the other major.

 

Simple and straightforward? Now we have an almost artificial 3m bid over 2H to indicate a slam try with four spades, how is that simple and straightforward?

3m is a NATURAL slam try showing 4 spades, nothing artificial about it. Perhaps Art was unclear since of course on balanced hands with 4 spades you of course bid 4NT (or appropriate NT), not a minor.

[gwnn]

I would like

 

1NT-2♣

2♥-3m

 

to show at least 5-4.