Jump Shift, or no?

[mike777]

"Yes, it is that bad, and I tried to explain why. I even asked you how you would proceed if opener rebids 2M or 2NT. I also asked you if 2M is a reverse or not. Did you discuss that with your favorite partner?"

 

 

 

 

2major i play natural.

2nt would be 11-13 very very often....

 

in any case i rebid 3c not sure what the problem is.

 

not sure how 1d is better.

 

i repeat 1d much be much better?

 

btw with my fav pards i do not play sjs ..so I am guessing based on 1971..:)

There is nothing other to say than you have not understood the issue. You play 2 major natural, you write. Bleeding obvious. 2nt would be 11-13 very very often.... Pray tell, what else can it be (apart from 12-14)? So it's not often, it's always.

 

But did you tell us if 2M in your partnerhip(s) is a reverse or not? And can you tell us why you bid 3♣ over a 2NT rebid? Did opener promise 5 at any stage? Your strong jump shift muddles the waters. That's a fact.

 

You seem to be focused on getting your point count across right away, but you have put little effort into the subsequent auction. It's easy to bid 2♦; it's more difficult to get the auction right after that.

 

Roland

what are you talking about/

 

 

 

 

reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......

 

 

in any case I have toldyou what i bid....

 

 

1h=

 

 

2d is easy...next.....

[Walddk]

reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......

Which just goes to show that you haven't understood the reverse concept either.

 

"reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

 

I haven't seen a statement that stupid for decades. I give up.

 

Roland

[mike777]

reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......

Which just goes to show that you haven't understood the reverse concept either.

 

"reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

 

I haven't seen a statement that stupid for decades. I give up.

 

Roland

i give up all reverses are not extra lol....

 

 

1c=2d

2h=is not extra......lol

 

 

1h=2d

2s=not extra without agreement....lol

 

I repeat reverse does not equal extra 100%......next

see bridge encyclopedia...reverse not extra 100%.......

[helene_t]

I jump shift is based either on a one-suiter or a a 5-card plus support for partner's suit. We don't have this. I suppose some could describe this hand via 2NT response, but a 2♦ response is a misdescription IMO.

 

Assuming we play Walsh this is very easy. Over partner's 1NT rebid I just bid 6NT.

[the hog]

"reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

 

Uh Mike....???? That comment is totally meaningless, sorry. It either promises extra strength, (and I VEHEMENTLY feel that it should), or it doesn't. However this is a matter you must have agreed with your partner beforehand, surely.

 

"1c=2d

2h=is not extra......lol"

 

Absolutely is with anyone I have ever played with or will ever play with, regardless of system!

[mike777]

"reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

 

Uh Mike....???? That comment is totally meaningless, sorry. It either promises extra strength, (and I VEHEMENTLY feel that it should), or it doesn't. However this is a matter you must have agreed with your partner beforehand, surely.

 

"1c=2d

2h=is not extra......lol"

 

Absolutely is with anyone I have ever played with or will ever play with, regardless of system!

insane...

 

 

1c=2d (stj)

2h is extra=insane

 

how much extra does 2h show.....lots of extra...insane///////......

 

 

xx...AKxx...xx...AKxxx....typical minimum........

xxx...akxx...x...akxxx

[Walddk]

"reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

 

Uh Mike....???? That comment is totally meaningless, sorry. It either promises extra strength, (and I VEHEMENTLY feel that it should), or it doesn't. However this is a matter you must have agreed with your partner beforehand, surely.

 

"1c=2d

2h=is not extra......lol"

 

Absolutely is with anyone I have ever played with or will ever play with, regardless of system!

insane...

 

 

1c=2d (stj)

2h is extra=insane

Yes, you are the only sensible person around by the look of it. The rest of us are beyond therapeutical reach. Nonetheless we will try to survive.

 

Roland

[the hog]

"reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

 

Uh Mike....???? That comment is totally meaningless, sorry. It either promises extra strength, (and I VEHEMENTLY feel that it should), or it doesn't. However this is a matter you must have agreed with your partner beforehand, surely.

 

"1c=2d

2h=is not extra......lol"

 

Absolutely is with anyone I have ever played with or will ever play with, regardless of system!

insane...

 

 

1c=2d (stj)

2h is extra=insane

 

how much extra does 2h show.....lots of extra...insane///////......

 

 

xx...AKxx...xx...AKxxx....typical minimum........

xxx...akxx...x...akxxx

Mike, pd opens 1H.

You have a 3253 16 or so count.

You bid 2D and pd bids 2S. Now what? 3C from yousay? 3NT from pd. Now....????

If opener has not shown extras, 4NT (Quant) from you may be above the trick limit of the hand.

 

Great, you play 4NT off 1 and everyone else in the world makes 9 tricks. personally I think that a reverse NOT showing extra values is "insane" as you put it. However, you are entitled to your opinion.

[P_Marlowe]

Can we just stop the discussion, if reverse in general

show add. strength or not?

 

Both styles have their merrits, although I play

that a reverse showes add. strength, I have

learned it that way, and well ...

 

......................................................................

 

In the current context this discussion is not really relevant,

since the reverse occurs after a SJS, you may treat it similar,

or you may not.

Of course if you require add. strength, you may be forced

to bid 3C instead of 2M, if you happen to hold a min. opener

with a 5-4 shape, which would kill add. space.

And because of this, I would say, that after a SJS a "reverse",

opener bids a suit higher ranking than the suit he opened, does

not promise add. strength.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I know this post is insane / stuid and showes, that I am on

suicide watch.

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/diplomat.htm

[Finch]

I honestly don't think that anyone believes that

 

1C 2D (sjs)

2M

 

shows extra strength, that really is insane

(and it's not a reverse anyway)

[han]

Agree with Frances and mike777 on that issue.

[fred]

I honestly don't think that anyone believes that

 

1C   2D (sjs)

2M

 

shows extra strength, that really is insane

(and it's not a reverse anyway)

I always thought that a new suit response to a jump shift meant nothing more than "I have a source of tricks in this suit". For example, 1C-2D-2H could be based on a 4423 12-count or a strong hand with a lot of shape - the only thing it really "promises" is a strong heart suit.

 

The theory is that when responder jump shifts he is not supposed to have the sort of hand where he needs to get a detailed description of his partner's hand. Instead he should have the sort of hand in which he is prepared to set trump with his rebid, temporarily relinquishing captaincy, and then let nature take its course.

 

When opener bids a new suit over the jump shift, he is not proposing that suit as trump - if responder wanted to consider playing in a contract with that suit as trump he should not have jump shifted in the first place.

 

Instead the new suit bid should be used to help responder decide how well the hands mesh. If opener bids a new suit and responder has a holding like Ax or Kxx in that suit, he should like his hand more. But if instead responder has a singleton or void in that suit, he should like his hand less.

 

IMO it is crazy for opener's 2H or 2S rebid in the auction in question to just say "I have 4 cards in this suit" regardless of whether or not you think the bid shows extra values. If responder cared about a 4-card major, he should not have bid 2D in the first place.

 

Mike777 - In the modern American style of bidding, 2D then 3C with Qxx of clubs is simply wrong. End of story. Some very experienced players have been trying to explain this to you, but it sounds to me that you are either not listening and/or you are just being stubborn.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[cherdano]

It might be worth pointing out that (in my understanding at least) there are two styles of playing strong jumpshifts. In the one that Fred seems to be advocating, responder knows which suit is trump, i.e. he has

(1) a self-sufficient suit, or

(2) good support (not Qxx!)

In the style used for example in BWS, responder could also have a balanced hand with a good suit, and extras for the GF - probably s.th. like 16-18 hcp.

 

Playing the latter style, one might be able to get away with a SJS on that hand. E.g. if partner bids 2M, we can bid 2N, and force to slam later. But e.g. over a 2N rebid we are stuck, 3♣ is misdescriptive and bidding NT either is an underbid (3N) or takes away a lot of space while we still don't know where we belong.

[jdonn]

I really don't mind either bid. I don't see how the 'problem' of what to do over 1♣ 2♦ 2NT is very different from the 'problem' of what to do over 1♣ 1♦ 1♠ 2♥ 2NT. Additionally, if you play 1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 2♠ as fourth suit then you are really taking up a lot of room. It's nice to be able to make one bid that clarifies that all your future non-game bids are forcing.

 

Maybe I'm influenced by the way I have always play strong jump shifts, which seems to be the common way in southern California. Opener is supposed to make an artificial bid in the next step (2♥) except when he has a very unusual hand, to let responder clarify his intentions. So I "know" I would get to bid 2NT next. Then if partner rebids 3♣ or 3♦ I'm well positioned to investigate, if he simply raises to 3NT I can bid (for example) 4♦ to keep the auction going, having already shown a balanced hand. Another possibility would be to raise 3NT to 5NT as a choice of slams, then follow with 6NT as an invitation to 7NT. I don't think we will reach every cold grand that way, but I think we will reach some cold ones and no bad ones.

 

In my normal methods 2♦ is artificial, and I certainly don't feel badly about bidding 1♦.

 

My reasoning certainly has nothing to do with anything Mike has said, at least that of it which I can understand.

[1eyedjack]

I thought that this was quite a difficult problem and I don't find any of the responses especially convincing. I would probably respond 1D but without much enthusiasm or confidence that the rebids which I shall subsequently extract from partner under duress will help me to choose between the anticipated options of 6N and 7N as final contract.

 

My experience of taking these hands slowly is that I start by making a forcing bid. Partner makes a rebid which doesn't really help me. I then make a game forcing bid, such as 4th suit. Partner shows me a guard in the 4th suit. Well whoopde-doo, there's a surprise. Finally I get across that I really have a slam try. By now I am at the 4 level, and partner has (probably with some reluctance by now) completed his hand pattern (which does not divert me from choosing between 6N and 7N). I have probably only by now promised about 18 points, maybe 17 at a stretch and I am now at the 4 level. Given my luck there is no suit agreed either expressly or by implication, so that by now 4N would not even be forcing. And there is certainly no prospect of the dreaded G-word applying after this start. So I carry on making forcing bids opposite an uncooperative partner who is desperately by this time trying to slam on the brakes at every opportunity.

 

I think that the hand cries out for a system of relays by responder. By the time that he has relayed to 6S he may have a respectable chance of spotting the ball.

 

The critics of a 2D response are probably bolting on standard continuations. I don't have all the answers, but I would not be surprised if there were potential for significant improvements to continuations to strong jump shifts which could erode the perceived disadvantages to that response.

[skjaeran]

As to SJS, the responses I'm "used" to are, in order of priority:

1. Raise with Qx or better (xxx is worse than Qx).

2. Rebid the opening suit with HHxxx or better

3. Bid a new suit with honour concentration (HHx/AJT) or better

4. Bid 2NT with stoppers in the unbid suits.

 

I can't remember ever playing SJS in a regular partnership though, so I've never tried the above in practise.

[blackshoe]

After 1D, I likey my options better, I have NMF or FSF

available, and I will be able to knoow, if partner is bal.

has min / max, and if happens to have a fit.

How would you feel if you had neither of those options available? That was the situation in which I found myself.

[P_Marlowe]

After 1D, I likey my options better, I have NMF or FSF

available, and I will be able to knoow, if partner is bal.

has min / max, and if happens to have a fit.

How would you feel if you had neither of those options available? That was the situation in which I found myself.

Assuming I dont play NMF, I prefer 1D even more.

Especially if I am the stronger player in the partnership.

 

The reason is simple, 1D will give partner the most room to

describe his hand.

NMF playes a role, if his next bid is 1NT, in this case I know,

that partner is bal. with 12-14.

I know as well, that we have a 8 card fit in the minor, I just

dont know, in which.

Most likely I will bid 6NT, accepting the fact, that I wont be

able to judge correctly, if we can make 7 or not.

.........................................................................................

Assuming partner responds 1M, we wont have a problem, if we

play FSF, if we dont play it, ... ok than I think I would bid 4NT,

which should be key card ask, having both kings, I dont need to

worry, if partner assumes Blackwood or RKCB, depending on the

answer I would go with 6NT or 7NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[han]

I would just bid

 

1C - 1D

1NT - 4C.

 

Gerber.

[655321]

I would just bid

 

1C - 1D

1NT - 4C.

 

Gerber.

What is wrong with

 

1♣ - 4♣.

 

Gerber. Saves a full round of bidding.

[rogerclee]

I would just bid

 

1C - 1D

1NT - 4C.

 

Gerber.

What is wrong with

 

1♣ - 4♣.

 

Gerber. Saves a full round of bidding.

Han, you just got served.

[blackshoe]

I suppose that's okay - if that's your agreement. It isn't ours.

[skjaeran]

I would just bid

 

1C - 1D

1NT - 4C.

 

Gerber.

What is wrong with

 

1♣ - 4♣.

 

Gerber. Saves a full round of bidding.

ROFL!

 

Since you still won't have any idea what's the correct contract, you should just bid 6NT at once. THAT saves at least another round of bidding. :)

[helene_t]

Agree with Harald and I might actually do it at matchpoints.

[lexlogan]

if you have sjs followups discussed, then sure. if not 1d is forcing enough.

IMO it would be very wrong to jump shift with this hand.

 

In general I would say that you should not jump shift when you have a hand in which you plan to drive to slam regardless of how the bidding goes.

 

In general I would say that you should think of a jump shift as a "statement" as opposed to a "question". More specifically, the jump shifter's statement should pertain to the direction he is heading in - he should clarify his direction with his rebid (typically by setting trumps).

 

This hand has question written all over it. You don't know what trump suit (if any) you want to play in so you should give your partner as much space as possible to help you resolve this issue.

 

There is no need to panic as you will be able to maintain control of the auction regardless of what partner bids over your 1D response.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

This is the textbook American treatment of strong jump shifts -- don't jump unless you know where you're going. Albert Morehead and, as far as I've read, most British authorities take the opposite approach -- jump shift with strong hands lacking clear direction. (Morehead might, however, advise against jumping with a hand this strong.)

 

Clearly, playing with an American partner and lacking discussion, the jump is dangerous for two reasons -- far too many Americans assume weak jump shifts, and those who don't tend to bid passively over a SJS since they assume responder is captain of the auction.

 

But with any partner I have discussed this with, I'd certainly jump. The slight bidding space consumed by a two level jump is more than repaid by avoiding a later jump and avoiding tortuous fourth suit sequences on such a relatively balanced hand. (I tell my partners KQxx or AJxx is fine for a jump, no need to raise immediately without four card support.) So the bidding typically proceeds

1C-2D-2H or 2S, after which my 2NT bid leaves partner plenty of room to finish describing his hand.

 

Other possibilities include 1C-2D-3D; a welcome development, we have plenty of room to cue-bid toward grand slam. 1C-2D-3C; partner will be more inlcined to rebid a 5-card suit on this bidding, knowing the target is slam, not game, and we again have room for cue-bidding.

 

The most problematic sequence may be 1C-2D-2NT, but it is hard to see how we are worse off than after 1C-1D-1NT. Anything we bid is natural, game-forcing, and shows slam interest; after 1C-1D-1NT, we'll need artificial gadgetry to avoid being dropped, or we can just bash to slam (and then what did not jumping last round do for us?.) On the given hand I'd rebid 3C and expect partner to show 3-card support: 1C-2D-2NT-3C-3D, otherwise we have a club fit (lacking a four-card major, he must have 3 diamonds or 5 clubs) and partner can begin cue-bidding over my 3C.