Jump Shift, or no?

[lexlogan]

"reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

 

Uh Mike....???? That comment is totally meaningless, sorry. It either promises extra strength, (and I VEHEMENTLY feel that it should), or it doesn't. However this is a matter you must have agreed with your partner beforehand, surely.

 

"1c=2d

2h=is not extra......lol"

 

Absolutely is with anyone I have ever played with or will ever play with, regardless of system!

There is no bridge logic for 1C-2D-2H to be a "reverse", any more than 1C-1D-1H. The nature of a reverse is that opener forces responder to a higher level if he prefers opener's first suit. This is manifestly not the case after 1C-2D-2H; it is responder, not opener, who has forced the bidding to the three level.

 

If you've agreed Soloway jump shifts, responder has denied a side suit, so opener's 2H or 2S rebid can mean whatever you like. But playing sensible, Morehead On Bidding style jumps, responder does not deny a side suit and opener's rebids are natural. Some of my favorite jump shift sequences proceed

1x-2y-2z-3z; we've found a 4-4 fit at the three level in a clear-cut slam interest auction. The equivalent non-jump sequence is 1x-1y-1z-2f (fourth suit)-something-3z, which, while forcing, does not unambigously show slam interest.

 

(N.B.: 3 level jump shifts certainly crowd the bidding and should be more restricted than 2 level jumps, or they can be used artificially such as Bergen raises. But 2 level jumps often SAVE bidding space and simplify many auctions.)

[mike777]

I have often ranted about the meaning of reverses. As in previous posts I just refer people to the Bridge Encyclopedia.

 

"An unforced rebid at the level of two or more in a higher ranking suit than that bid originally-usually(not 100%) a strength showing bid"

 

 

So a reverse is not strong 100% and 1c=2d=2h is not strong. It is simply natural..

 

As for this hand I have np with 1d and not 2d but 1c=2d=2nt is not a problem, see my previous posts. I can find out if pard has the QD and key cards and more..npp even with clubs as trumps.

[smiffy]

I have often ranted about the meaning of reverses. As in previous posts I just refer people to the Bridge Encyclopedia.

 

"An unforced rebid at the level of two or more in a higher ranking suit than that bid originally-usually(not 100%) a strength showing bid"

 

 

So a reverse is not strong 100% and 1c=2d=2h is not strong. It is simply natural..

 

As for this hand I have np with 1d and not 2d but  1c=2d=2nt is not a problem, see my previous posts. I can find out if pard has the QD and key cards and more..npp even with clubs as trumps.

@mike777: Does it really say "not 100%" in the Encyclopedia? I have a feeling this is an addition made by you in order to make your point clear, yes?

If so, you might want to quote - especially from an encyclopedia - "as is". If not, then please excuse that.

"Usually a strength showing bid" though means nothing else but "unless specifically agreed otherwise". No?

 

@ topic: The only advantage of an SJS here would be the immediate game force. I think this by no means outweighs the disadvantages of the loss of bidding space and the somewhat misdiscreption of the hand. Since the question - and aim - here is clearly wether you want a small or large slam in No Trump and not in Diamonds. Also a 2D response would tell me as opener that the responder has a game-forcing hand that might have rebid problems in achieving just that. I'd assume very strong and long (6+) diamonds and some outside honors. I'd certainly not expect a 2NT+ opener with 5 non-solid diamonds. Clearly 1D for me.

[mike777]

I have often ranted about the meaning of reverses. As in previous posts I just refer people to the Bridge Encyclopedia.

 

"An unforced rebid at the level of two or more in a higher ranking suit than that bid originally-usually(not 100%) a strength showing bid"

 

 

So a reverse is not strong 100% and 1c=2d=2h is not strong. It is simply natural..

 

As for this hand I have np with 1d and not 2d but  1c=2d=2nt is not a problem, see my previous posts. I can find out if pard has the QD and key cards and more..npp even with clubs as trumps.

@mike777: Does it really say "not 100%" in the Encyclopedia? I have a feeling this is an addition made by you in order to make your point clear, yes?

If so, you might want to quote - especially from an encyclopedia - "as is". If not, then please excuse that.

"Usually a strength showing bid" though means nothing else but "unless specifically agreed otherwise". No?

 

@ topic: The only advantage of an SJS here would be the immediate game force. I think this by no means outweighs the disadvantages of the loss of bidding space and the somewhat misdiscreption of the hand. Since the question - and aim - here is clearly wether you want a small or large slam in No Trump and not in Diamonds. Also a 2D response would tell me as opener that the responder has a game-forcing hand that might have rebid problems in achieving just that. I'd assume very strong and long (6+) diamonds and some outside honors. I'd certainly not expect a 2NT+ opener with 5 non-solid diamonds. Clearly 1D for me.

no!

 

that is far far from what usually means.

and i put 100% in brackets and told you to read encyclopedia for more information.

 

if you think:

1c=2d true strong jump shift

2h=strong..i give up. only 40 hcp in deck.

 

If partner cannot rebid 2h with 5c and 4h and not STRONG i give up.

 

 

Frankly I am shocked no one else has posted this..

[Walddk]

If partner cannot rebid 2h with 5c and 4h and not STRONG i give up.

 

 

Frankly I am shocked no one else has posted this..

I think only one poster said that 2♥ shows extras on this auction, so why you are shocked I don't know. However, it surprises me that your next bid over opener's 2NT rebid is 3♣.

 

At least I thought it would make an impression when Fred wrote ...

 

Mike777 - In the modern American style of bidding, 2D then 3C with Qxx of clubs is simply wrong. End of story. Some very experienced players have been trying to explain this to you, but it sounds to me that you are either not listening and/or you are just being stubborn.

 

Maybe you did not read it, or perhaps you chose to ignore it. You tell us that you will be able to find about ♦Q and everything else with your approach. I am not convinced on an auction like this:

 

1♣ - 2♦

2N - 3♣

4♣

 

Your partner thinks you have a huge hand with diamonds and excellent fit for clubs opposite what might be 3 cards when he rebid 2NT. Qxx doesn't qualify in my opinion.

 

It also surprises me that you are too stubborn to admit that it's more economical and therefore easier when you get opener's shape one level lower by responding 1♦. You are the one who jumps and take bidding space away on an auction where the opponents will not interfere.

 

"Good cards should be bid slowly" is a good rule of thumb for a hand that has no idea where you will end up.

 

Roland

[mike777]

If partner cannot rebid 2h with 5c and 4h and not STRONG i give up.

 

 

Frankly I am shocked no one else has posted this..

I think only one poster said that 2♥ shows extras on this auction, so why you are shocked I don't know. However, it surprises me that your next bid over opener's 2NT rebid is 3♣.

 

At least I thought it would make an impression when Fred wrote ...

 

Mike777 - In the modern American style of bidding, 2D then 3C with Qxx of clubs is simply wrong. End of story. Some very experienced players have been trying to explain this to you, but it sounds to me that you are either not listening and/or you are just being stubborn.

 

Maybe you did not read it, or perhaps you chose to ignore it. You tell us that you will be able to find about ♦Q and everything else with your approach. I am not convinced on an auction like this:

 

1♣ - 2♦

2N - 3♣

4♣

 

Your partner thinks you have a huge hand with diamonds and excellent fit for clubs opposite what might be 3 cards when he rebid 2NT. Qxx doesn't qualify in my opinion.

 

Roland

this auction is easy after 3c =4c...as i posted.....days ago.

 

i can find all keycards and QD and more.

 

i just think 1d is more complicated, very, but ok.

[Trinidad]

If partner cannot rebid 2h with 5c and 4h and not STRONG i give up.

 

 

Frankly I am shocked no one else has posted this..

I think only one poster said that 2♥ shows extras on this auction, so why you are shocked I don't know. However, it surprises me that your next bid over opener's 2NT rebid is 3♣.

 

At least I thought it would make an impression when Fred wrote ...

 

Mike777 - In the modern American style of bidding, 2D then 3C with Qxx of clubs is simply wrong. End of story. Some very experienced players have been trying to explain this to you, but it sounds to me that you are either not listening and/or you are just being stubborn.

 

Maybe you did not read it, or perhaps you chose to ignore it. You tell us that you will be able to find about ♦Q and everything else with your approach. I am not convinced on an auction like this:

 

1♣ - 2♦

2N - 3♣

4♣

 

Your partner thinks you have a huge hand with diamonds and excellent fit for clubs opposite what might be 3 cards when he rebid 2NT. Qxx doesn't qualify in my opinion.

 

Roland

this auction is easy after 3c =4c...as i posted.....days ago.

 

i can find all keycards and QD and more.

 

i just think 1d is more complicated, very, but ok.

Mike,

 

For clarity's sake, I will repeat the original hand here:

 

♠AK

♥KQx

♦AKJTx

♣Qxx

 

This auction is not easy after:

 

1♣-2♦

2NT-3♣

 

1) Your bidding means that you are setting clubs as trumps, with a possibility for partner to opt for a diamond contract. Partner is captain. He will bid 4♣ on four card suits or five card suits. He might well bid 4♣ on a three card suit (♠xxxx ♥Axxx ♦Qx ♣AKx), expecting you to have a (12)55 distribution or better.

 

2) Since you will never find out whether partner has 3, 4 or 5 clubs, your plan is to take captaincy of the auction anyway and then decide whether to play 6NT or 7NT. If that is what you want then you are daisy picking. Just start the auction with 1♣-5NT and you will achieve your goal much more accurately and much faster, without showing anything to the opponents.

 

Rik

[lexlogan]

For clarity's sake, I will repeat the original hand here:

 

♠AK

♥KQx

♦AKJTx

♣Qxx

 

This auction is not easy after:

 

1♣-2♦

2NT-3♣

 

1) Your bidding means that you are setting clubs as trumps, with a possibility for partner to opt for a diamond contract. Partner is captain. He will bid 4♣ on four card suits or five card suits. He might well bid 4♣ on a three card suit (♠xxxx ♥Axxx ♦Qx ♣AKx), expecting you to have a (12)55 distribution or better.

 

2) Since you will never find out whether partner has 3, 4 or 5 clubs, your plan is to take captaincy of the auction anyway and then decide whether to play 6NT or 7NT. If that is what you want then you are daisy picking. Just start the auction with 1♣-5NT and you will achieve your goal much more accurately and much faster, without showing anything to the opponents.

 

Rik

Rik,

 

3C means you are setting clubs as trumps only if that's what you've agreed it means. With a pickup partner familiar with American methods, that would be a reasonable assumption. But it is hardly the only possible meaning of 3C, and I doubt if there would be a world-wide consensus about that.

 

Since this thread is under the SAYC and 2/1 GF category, I suppose American methods should be assumed, however revolting.

[blackshoe]

The topic subtitle does say "Standard American"

[benlessard]

1. Raise with Qx or better (xxx is worse than Qx).

IMO a stiff Q and xxx is a clearcut raise. A SJS suggest a very good suit or a fit for partner.

 

AKJxx isnt good enough, Qxx isnt enough.

[barryallen]

This hand has question written all over it. You don't know what trump suit (if any) you want to play in so you should give your partner as much space as possible to help you resolve this issue.

The big question mark to me as soon as I see my hand and hear an opening 1♣ bid is the Q♦. We know we are in slam, but in the back of my mind I would orchestrating things towards this one piece of information, depending upon your system. Partner is going to describe his hand fully in a couple of bids and it looks between ♣, ♦ and NT.

[SoTired]

How often have you made a SJS? How many have detailed understanding about the followups? I think few know what any of the bids after the SJS mean. But everyone knows what rebids after a 1D response show and mean. And most know after 4sf how to reply.

 

1. If I am playing 4SF, then I bid 1D because I want a natural rebid by opener describing his hand type and strength. If opener rebids 1M, then I need 4sf and will try to obtain more strength info from partner.

But if I am real lucky and opener rebids 1N, 2C, 3C, 2N, 2D, 3D or 2M, I will know what to do.

 

2. If I am NOT playing 4SF, then I bid 2D to immediately tell partner we are GF and looking for slam. No accidents, pls.

 

Fred's post describe the Soloway SJS. But if I recall, the Soloway SJS included 3 hand types: 1) Self-sufficent suit, 2) support for partner with good suit of our own, or 3) 19+ HCP, balanced.

 

We have hand-type #3.

 

Most are trying to get more info from opener... But an immediate SJS has the advantage of immediately telling opener about GF and slam potential.

 

So I don't think that either 1D or 2D is "wrong" either way. I only think that one may work better than the other depending on agreements.

 

I disagree that 1C-2D-2M is automatically a fragment bid without discussion. It certainly does not show any extra strength. Although I probably would not bid it on any suit not headed by an ace or king, I would expect it to show a 4-card suit until trumps are set.

 

I would expect partner to raise 2D to 3D with 3-card support instead of bidding a major or rebidding clubs with 5. I would not expect partner to bid 3D with ♦Qx.