Jump Shift, or no?

[blackshoe]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sakhkqxdakjtxcqxx]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

Partner opens 1♣, RHO pases. Your call?

[mike777]

If you play sjs of course 2d is fine....

 

if you don't and many do not 1d is fine.

[matmat]

if you have sjs followups discussed, then sure. if not 1d is forcing enough.

[fred]

if you have sjs followups discussed, then sure. if not 1d is forcing enough.

IMO it would be very wrong to jump shift with this hand.

 

In general I would say that you should not jump shift when you have a hand in which you plan to drive to slam regardless of how the bidding goes.

 

In general I would say that you should think of a jump shift as a "statement" as opposed to a "question". More specifically, the jump shifter's statement should pertain to the direction he is heading in - he should clarify his direction with his rebid (typically by setting trumps).

 

This hand has question written all over it. You don't know what trump suit (if any) you want to play in so you should give your partner as much space as possible to help you resolve this issue.

 

There is no need to panic as you will be able to maintain control of the auction regardless of what partner bids over your 1D response.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[mike777]

I do not see 2d taking up that much bidding space compared to what we tellpartner on this one. Assume we play sjs.

[Walddk]

Fred's words could have been mine. Basically, as responder you should ask yourself the following two questions (in the right order):

 

- 1. Where are we going to play?

- 2. How high are we going to play?

 

It's paramount that you get an answer to question 1 before you proceed to the next question. With this hand you have no idea where you are going to play. Accordingly, do not jump around and take bidding room away from yourself. The opponents will not interfere.

 

Good cards should be bid slowly in order to investigate all possible strains. As long as you bid a new suit, partner will bid again, and you will be much wiser before too long. Respond 1♦ and take it from there.

 

Roland

[SlickRicky]

Hi,

 

What's the rush? Start with 1D and see what develops.

 

Ricky

[effervesce]

IMO for a SJS you either need a self-sufficient suit or good support for partner as otherwise the SJS removes space necessary to find the right strain.

 

So, after 1♣-1♦

if partner rebids 1M (I prefer 1M rebids with unbalanced hands) he/she is likely to have a 5m-4M type hand-bid the fourth suit game forcing (ie the other major - if 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ is fourth suit or 2♠ is fourth suit forcing)-then after partner's next bid, support clubs and setting trump.

 

E.g.:

 

1♣-1♦

1♥-2♠ (fourth suit forcing)

3♣-4♣

4♦-4NT (4♦ shows A/K/Q in diamonds) 4NT RKCB for clubs

5♣-7NT (5♣ 0 or 3, obviously 3)

 

will reach the grand when partner has xx Axxx Qx AKxxx

 

If partner rebids 1NT, then you can either bash 6NT, or bid more slowly if you play two-way checkback.

 

Eg

1♣-1♦

1NT-2♦ (2♦ game-forcing checkback)

If partner now bids 2x, you bid 3♦, if partner bids 3♣ showing 5 clubs, bid 4♣.

 

Eg with

xxx Axx Qxx AKxx the bidding will go

1♣-1♦

1NT-2♦

2NT-3♦

4♣-4NT (4♣ cue in own suit should show two of the top 3 honors)

5♠-7NT (5♠ two key cards + Q diamonds)

[mike777]

no one has said how 2d eats up too much space on this one so far......4sf is far worse.

 

you miss nothing on these example hands. in fact some of these auctions are much more difficult than simple sjs.

[blackshoe]

Thanks all. Pretty much what I eventually concluded I should have done. At the table, I bid 2♦. Partner rebid 2NT, and I jumped to 6NT. Partner eschewed the diamond finesse, even though taking it would not jeopardize the contract, so missed the overtrick. She had, iirc, S QJxx H Axx D xx C AKxx.

 

The post-mortem was interesting. We had not discussed it, so I felt that we should both be on the same wavelength - that jump shifts were strong, not weak. But partner said after the hand "Nobody plays strong jump shifts anymore. I almost passed." :)

 

Yeah, my bidding sucked. :)

[mike777]

Thanks all. Pretty much what I eventually concluded I should have done. At the table, I bid 2♦. Partner rebid 2NT, and I jumped to 6NT. Partner eschewed the diamond finesse, even though taking it would not jeopardize the contract, so missed the overtrick. She had, iirc, S QJxx H Axx D xx C AKxx.

 

The post-mortem was interesting. We had not discussed it, so I felt that we should both be on the same wavelength - that jump shifts were strong, not weak. But partner said after the hand "Nobody plays strong jump shifts anymore. I almost passed."  :)

 

Yeah, my bidding sucked. :)

lol just rebid 3c no problem yet........

you can always correct to 6nt....7nt later...

 

 

1c=2d

2nt=3c

4c=4d rkc now you take control....

 

no checkback

no 4sf

 

of course if no sjs 1d gets you there also. just more bids.

[the hog]

Why do you want to jump on this hand? Take things slowly and bid 1D.

[blackshoe]

Hm. I was just thinking. If the auction had started 1♣-1♦-1NT, I'd have been in much the same boat as I actually was. My thinking at the table was that we had 34-36 points between us, and were both balanced, and that's why I jumped to 6NT. I would probably have the same thoughts on this auction.

 

In fact though, it would have gone 1♣-1♦-1♠. We do not have 4th suit forcing available (I've tried, but...). So now what? Bid 2♥ anyway? At least it's forcing. :)

[cherdano]

If you don't play 4th suit forcing, then I think 2♦ is right. But really...

[Walddk]

no one has said how 2d eats up too much space on this one so far......4sf is far worse.

It does for a couple of reasons. First, have you discussed whether 2M from opener next is a reverse or not? Second, if he rebids 2NT, how will you be able to determine whether you belong in a small or grand slam? Please don't tell us that 4♣ by responder now will be keycard asking. That will get you nowhere. It won't be a major surprise that you have them all.

 

If he is balanced, it's much more important to find out if he has five clubs and/or three diamonds. Hence, you are in a much better position if you respond 1♦ and get a 1NT rebid. Now you can check back at a low level and determine the exact shape opposite.

 

Qxx

Axx

xxx

AKxx

 

Now the grand slam is on a finesse, and you don't want to bid it.

 

...

 

xxx

Axxx

Qx

AKJx

 

Qxx

Axx

xx

AKJxx

 

Opposite the first hand you have 14 top tricks, opposite the second 13. How are you supposed to know which of the three hands opener has after your jump to 2♦ followed by a 2NT rebid? And, if his rebid is 2M (is it a reverse or not?), how will you proceed?

 

With the hand you have here, it's not so much a question of whether you have all keycards or not (you most likely have them all); it's a question of being able to count tricks. So, take it easy and investigate. The auction may take a little longer if you respond 1♦. So what? There is no bonus for bidding fast.

 

Roland

[mike777]

no one has said how 2d eats up too much space on this one so far......4sf is far worse.

It does for a couple of reasons. First, have you discussed whether 2M from opener next is a reverse or not? Second, if he rebids 2NT, how will you be able to determine whether you belong in a small or grand slam? Please don't tell us that 4♣ by responder now will be keycard asking. That will get you nowhere. It won't be a major surprise that you have them all.

 

If he is balanced, it's much more important to find out if he has five clubs and/or three diamonds. Hence, you are in a much better position if you respond 1♦ and get a 1NT rebid. Now you can check back at a low level and determine the exact shape opposite.

 

Qxx

Axx

xxx

AKxx

 

Now the grand slam is on a finesse, and you don't want to bid it.

 

...

 

xxx

Axxx

Qx

AKJx

 

Qxx

Axx

xx

AKJxx

 

Opposite the first hand you have 14 top tricks, opposite the second 13. How are you supposed to know which of the three hands opener has after your jump to 2♦ followed by a 2NT rebid? And, if his rebid is 2M (is it a reverse or not?), how will you proceed?

 

With the hand you have here, it's not so much a question of whether you have all keycards or not (you most likely have them all); it's a question of being able to count tricks. So, take it easy and investigate. The auction may take a little longer if you respond 1♦. So what? There is no bonus for bidding fast.

 

Roland

i have no idea what your post means....

 

 

1c=2d sjs...how is that bad?

 

see my other posts

 

how is 1d so much better?

 

if you open on crap you have problem i agree.

[Walddk]

no one has said how 2d eats up too much space on this one so far......4sf is far worse.

It does for a couple of reasons. First, have you discussed whether 2M from opener next is a reverse or not? Second, if he rebids 2NT, how will you be able to determine whether you belong in a small or grand slam? Please don't tell us that 4♣ by responder now will be keycard asking. That will get you nowhere. It won't be a major surprise that you have them all.

 

If he is balanced, it's much more important to find out if he has five clubs and/or three diamonds. Hence, you are in a much better position if you respond 1♦ and get a 1NT rebid. Now you can check back at a low level and determine the exact shape opposite.

 

Qxx

Axx

xxx

AKxx

 

Now the grand slam is on a finesse, and you don't want to bid it.

 

...

 

xxx

Axxx

Qx

AKJx

 

Qxx

Axx

xx

AKJxx

 

Opposite the first hand you have 14 top tricks, opposite the second 13. How are you supposed to know which of the three hands opener has after your jump to 2♦ followed by a 2NT rebid? And, if his rebid is 2M (is it a reverse or not?), how will you proceed?

 

With the hand you have here, it's not so much a question of whether you have all keycards or not (you most likely have them all); it's a question of being able to count tricks. So, take it easy and investigate. The auction may take a little longer if you respond 1♦. So what? There is no bonus for bidding fast.

 

Roland

i have no idea what your post means....

 

 

1c=2d sjs...how is that bad?

 

see my other posts

I have seen your other posts and if you don't get it, there is apparently nothing I can do about it. In my last post I tried, pretty articulately but in vain it seems, to tell you why you ruin your auction by making a jump shift to 2♦.

 

I even gave you examples. No luck. Sorry, it must be me; I don't know how to explain things ... or, perhaps you have a problem with reading the written word?

 

Roland

[mike777]

no one has said how 2d eats up too much space on this one so far......4sf is far worse.

It does for a couple of reasons. First, have you discussed whether 2M from opener next is a reverse or not? Second, if he rebids 2NT, how will you be able to determine whether you belong in a small or grand slam? Please don't tell us that 4♣ by responder now will be keycard asking. That will get you nowhere. It won't be a major surprise that you have them all.

 

If he is balanced, it's much more important to find out if he has five clubs and/or three diamonds. Hence, you are in a much better position if you respond 1♦ and get a 1NT rebid. Now you can check back at a low level and determine the exact shape opposite.

 

Qxx

Axx

xxx

AKxx

 

Now the grand slam is on a finesse, and you don't want to bid it.

 

...

 

xxx

Axxx

Qx

AKJx

 

Qxx

Axx

xx

AKJxx

 

Opposite the first hand you have 14 top tricks, opposite the second 13. How are you supposed to know which of the three hands opener has after your jump to 2♦ followed by a 2NT rebid? And, if his rebid is 2M (is it a reverse or not?), how will you proceed?

 

With the hand you have here, it's not so much a question of whether you have all keycards or not (you most likely have them all); it's a question of being able to count tricks. So, take it easy and investigate. The auction may take a little longer if you respond 1♦. So what? There is no bonus for bidding fast.

 

Roland

i have no idea what your post means....

 

 

1c=2d sjs...how is that bad?

 

see my other posts

I have seen your other posts and if you don't get it, there is apparently nothing I can do about it. In my last post I tried, pretty articulately but in vain it seems, to tell you why you ruin your auction by making a jump shift to 2♦.

 

I even gave you examples. No luck. Sorry, it must be me; I don't know how to explain things ... or, perhaps you have a problem with reading the written word?

 

Roland

what?

 

what are you talking about that I did not discuss pls?

 

1c=2d

?

 

 

i have no doubt 1c=1d may get you there but is 2d really that bad?

[Walddk]

no one has said how 2d eats up too much space on this one so far......4sf is far worse.

It does for a couple of reasons. First, have you discussed whether 2M from opener next is a reverse or not? Second, if he rebids 2NT, how will you be able to determine whether you belong in a small or grand slam? Please don't tell us that 4♣ by responder now will be keycard asking. That will get you nowhere. It won't be a major surprise that you have them all.

 

If he is balanced, it's much more important to find out if he has five clubs and/or three diamonds. Hence, you are in a much better position if you respond 1♦ and get a 1NT rebid. Now you can check back at a low level and determine the exact shape opposite.

 

Qxx

Axx

xxx

AKxx

 

Now the grand slam is on a finesse, and you don't want to bid it.

 

...

 

xxx

Axxx

Qx

AKJx

 

Qxx

Axx

xx

AKJxx

 

Opposite the first hand you have 14 top tricks, opposite the second 13. How are you supposed to know which of the three hands opener has after your jump to 2♦ followed by a 2NT rebid? And, if his rebid is 2M (is it a reverse or not?), how will you proceed?

 

With the hand you have here, it's not so much a question of whether you have all keycards or not (you most likely have them all); it's a question of being able to count tricks. So, take it easy and investigate. The auction may take a little longer if you respond 1♦. So what? There is no bonus for bidding fast.

 

Roland

i have no idea what your post means....

 

 

1c=2d sjs...how is that bad?

 

see my other posts

I have seen your other posts and if you don't get it, there is apparently nothing I can do about it. In my last post I tried, pretty articulately but in vain it seems, to tell you why you ruin your auction by making a jump shift to 2♦.

 

I even gave you examples. No luck. Sorry, it must be me; I don't know how to explain things ... or, perhaps you have a problem with reading the written word?

 

Roland

what?

 

what are you talking about that I did not discuss pls?

 

1c=2d

?

Did you not ask this question ...

 

no one has said how 2d eats up too much space on this one so far.

 

Did I not answer you? So what is it exactly you don't understand?

 

Roland

[mike777]

no one has said how 2d eats up too much space on this one so far......4sf is far worse.

It does for a couple of reasons. First, have you discussed whether 2M from opener next is a reverse or not? Second, if he rebids 2NT, how will you be able to determine whether you belong in a small or grand slam? Please don't tell us that 4♣ by responder now will be keycard asking. That will get you nowhere. It won't be a major surprise that you have them all.

 

If he is balanced, it's much more important to find out if he has five clubs and/or three diamonds. Hence, you are in a much better position if you respond 1♦ and get a 1NT rebid. Now you can check back at a low level and determine the exact shape opposite.

 

Qxx

Axx

xxx

AKxx

 

Now the grand slam is on a finesse, and you don't want to bid it.

 

...

 

xxx

Axxx

Qx

AKJx

 

Qxx

Axx

xx

AKJxx

 

Opposite the first hand you have 14 top tricks, opposite the second 13. How are you supposed to know which of the three hands opener has after your jump to 2♦ followed by a 2NT rebid? And, if his rebid is 2M (is it a reverse or not?), how will you proceed?

 

With the hand you have here, it's not so much a question of whether you have all keycards or not (you most likely have them all); it's a question of being able to count tricks. So, take it easy and investigate. The auction may take a little longer if you respond 1♦. So what? There is no bonus for bidding fast.

 

Roland

i have no idea what your post means....

 

 

1c=2d sjs...how is that bad?

 

see my other posts

I have seen your other posts and if you don't get it, there is apparently nothing I can do about it. In my last post I tried, pretty articulately but in vain it seems, to tell you why you ruin your auction by making a jump shift to 2♦.

 

I even gave you examples. No luck. Sorry, it must be me; I don't know how to explain things ... or, perhaps you have a problem with reading the written word?

 

Roland

what?

 

what are you talking about that I did not discuss pls?

 

1c=2d

?

Did you not ask this question ...

 

no one has said how 2d eats up too much space on this one so far.

 

Did I not answer you? So what is it exactly you don't understand?

 

Roland

no you have not responded to my posts.

 

what is the issue?

 

first off many of these hands are 1nt opening but np

[P_Marlowe]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sakhkqxdakjtxcqxx]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

Partner opens 1♣, RHO pases. Your call?

1D.

 

Assuming, we are talking about Soloway Jump Shifts,

I guess the plan would be 2D followed by ???,

most likely by a jump to 6NT, because with a bal. hand,

partner will bid 2NT, in other words you the follow ups

are not really exciting.

 

After 1D, I likey my options better, I have NMF or FSF

available, and I will be able to knoow, if partner is bal.

has min / max, and if happens to have a fit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: And I liked to play SJS.

[Walddk]

i have no doubt 1c=1d may get you there but is 2d really that bad?

Yes, it is that bad, and I tried to explain why. I even asked you how you would proceed if opener rebids 2M or 2NT. I also asked you if 2M is a reverse or not. Did you discuss that with your favorite partner?

 

You did not reply. Instead you are asking me what my post means. Sometimes I have a feeling that you don't read your own posts, let alone others, but just start rambling around in random fashion.

 

You are entitled to disagree with Fred, The Hog, me and other posters. By all means, go ahead and bid 2♦. In our views, you will be facing more problems later than if you had responded 1♦. You are not convinced even when we explain why. Fair enough. In that case we are not able to help you and you must look for guidance elsewhere.

 

Let me once and for all put it straight so that no misunderstanding is possible: 2♦ is seriously bad with that hand. You are not necessarily wrong because you walk alone with your view, but odds suggest that you are. I am sure you can find others who agree with you, but I doubt that they are not from the expert "community".

 

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

Thanks all. Pretty much what I eventually concluded I should have done. At the table, I bid 2♦. Partner rebid 2NT, and I jumped to 6NT. Partner eschewed the diamond finesse, even though taking it would not jeopardize the contract, so missed the overtrick. She had, iirc, S QJxx H Axx D xx C AKxx.

 

The post-mortem was interesting. We had not discussed it, so I felt that we should both be on the same wavelength - that jump shifts were strong, not weak. But partner said after the hand "Nobody plays strong jump shifts anymore. I almost passed."  :)

 

Yeah, my bidding sucked. :)

lol just rebid 3c no problem yet........

you can always correct to 6nt....7nt later...

 

 

1c=2d

2nt=3c

4c=4d rkc now you take control....

 

no checkback

no 4sf

 

of course if no sjs 1d gets you there also. just more bids.

Depending of the version of SJS you are playing

3C showed a club fit, it is not artificial, i.e. you told

partner that you have 5-5 or at least 5-4, at least

if you happen to play Soloway JS.

 

Now you may survive painting a false picture, but

I would say, that you need to try harder to prove

that SJS works on this hand better than 1D combined

with FSF, one option may look like

 

1C - 2D

2NT (1) - 5NT (2)

7NT (3)

 

(1) most likely it says nothing about the strength,

i.e. opener could still have 15HCP, say with a 5-4

shape, denying 3 diamonds.

(2) quantitative invitation to 7NT.

(3) max, unfortunately 36HCP may mean, we may miss

an Ace, not likely, but possible.

 

And I repeat, I played SJS, and I liked to play it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: To answer Rolands question - 2M instead of 2NT is not

a reverse, it does not even show 5-4 (not 100% sure about

this one, I guess with 4441 I would bid 2NT, so 54 it is.

[mike777]

"Yes, it is that bad, and I tried to explain why. I even asked you how you would proceed if opener rebids 2M or 2NT. I also asked you if 2M is a reverse or not. Did you discuss that with your favorite partner?"

 

 

 

 

2major i play natural.

2nt would be 11-13 very very often....

 

in any case i rebid 3c not sure what the problem is.

 

not sure how 1d is better.

 

i repeat 1d much be much better?

 

btw with my fav pards i do not play sjs ..so I am guessing based on 1971..:)

[Walddk]

"Yes, it is that bad, and I tried to explain why. I even asked you how you would proceed if opener rebids 2M or 2NT. I also asked you if 2M is a reverse or not. Did you discuss that with your favorite partner?"

 

 

 

 

2major i play natural.

2nt would be 11-13 very very often....

 

in any case i rebid 3c not sure what the problem is.

 

not sure how 1d is better.

 

i repeat 1d much be much better?

 

btw with my fav pards i do not play sjs ..so I am guessing based on 1971..:)

There is nothing other to say than you have not understood the issue. You play 2 major natural, you write. Bleeding obvious. 2nt would be 11-13 very very often.... Pray tell, what else can it be (apart from 12-14)? So it's not often, it's always.

 

But did you tell us if 2M in your partnerhip(s) is a reverse or not? And can you tell us why you bid 3♣ over a 2NT rebid? Did opener promise 5 at any stage? Your strong jump shift muddles the waters. That's a fact.

 

You seem to be focused on getting your point count across right away, but you have put little effort into the subsequent auction. It's easy to bid 2♦; it's more difficult to get the auction right after that.

 

Roland