Free Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Hi, I just heard about some signalling method called "prism signals" or "vinje signals". It's based on the fact that with 13 cards, you ALWAYS have either 1 suit with an even length (0,2,4,6,...) or 1 suit with an odd length (1,3,5,...):5431444144326430...This signal method should show somehow the parity of that one suit, which would give a lot of extra distributional information. Has anybody heard about it or played it? Do you still play it? Is it good? Why (not)? ...?? Free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 I think Keylime and Kickback use prism signals, seems like it is on their CC at least. I assume you have seen the prism signal webpage, and the author plays from time to time in the BBO. The prism book can be found at... Prism signal book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted April 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 I think keylime and kickback are on their honeymoon :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Hi Free, I felt free to try these signals, but they did not work for me:There are some hands, where you get to know the total shape after the first carding. But there are others, where you just get more confused then before. This is fundemental, as this will happen with any given carding system. But for me, these signals need an awful amount of head power. So in practise, this exercise costed more in a team game then it gave us. Kind Regards Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 When reading it i thought its a cool idea but too complex for me. I also remember that i didnt like the math part, and prefer to use logic instead.Anyway I wont be surprise if we similar ideas (maybe a bit simpler) will find it way to being common in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 I play full Vinje quite frequently. But the trump signal although heralded at the time of publication (early 70's) as revolutionary is not that great a benefit.Chances are that partner has already shown the count in one suit before he gets to use this signal, and if he just shows count in a second suit then if it is of equal parity he has got the same message across. The trump signal is of great benefit to declarer, and the defenders are not well placed to decide when it is right to falsecard a trump signal, as they can when giving routine count in a single suit. I think that the concensus at the top of the game is the "Smith Echo" is of more value. Simply alerting partner to the fact that a non-intuitive defence will work. You also have to be quite ethically aware when playing Vinje. Simply putting it on the CC and relying on the opponents to read it does not sit well with me. Better to prealert. Vinje certainly gives you an edge if declarer is ignorant of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Excellent answer from 1eyedjack :) Personally I feel that Prism and Vinje are for the youngsters who have boundless energy, concentration and memory cells. As I get older, and the brain cells fade away, I tend to consider both the technical merit plus the effort required to play any convention. Bridge is a game of stamina and I believe that complex carding systems require a consistent amount of brain power which means that you cannot relax even on the simple hands. Although Prism & Vinje has clear technical advantages, my judgement is that this extra value is not worth the concentration required. Simple signals, odd/even discards (easy to remember!) and Smith Echo are sufficient for me. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I'd learnt them when young :) Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted April 10, 2004 Report Share Posted April 10, 2004 Odd/even? Gasp, c'mon, we make more contracts declaring against odd/even pairings than should be allowed by law! For the record, prism signals are excellent tools that are mathematically sound. The critical importance is the trump suit play and the first discard - counting is so ultra-critical to prism signals that I don't recommend it for the faint of heart. I refer all to the PDF on its website that is good reading indeed. One interesting item of note using prism is when to use the Vinje signal in trumps because pard and I use suit preference oriented methods and carry it over to the trump suit. Feel free to ask me if wanted about how we handle the trump suit. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbreath Posted April 10, 2004 Report Share Posted April 10, 2004 Hi all ..i would appreciate a link or other reference to 'Smith echo' ..like a lot of other stuff i hear different stories from different folks and would like to read a definitive version. I agree in general with the comments about use of 'brain-power'... having not played any serious bridge for years i played in trials recently and played > 260 boards over 2 consecutive weekends.. was a bit of a shock.. much harder than playing long sessions on bbo where p will accept a 'sry p' for the odd blunder. When i was learning bridge there were a number of very strong players in this area (N.Ireland!) ..who played what they called 'in-suit' signals.. ie any 'unusual' carding sequence was a signal .. (eg: holding 8763 ..following 6,3 was routine (playing std carding) .. 8,3 7,3 7,6 7,3 carding potentially carried different meanings) not knowing any better, i assumed this was routine bridge technique but it draws no response from most partners here on BBO. any comments? Regards, Easter-Bunny-D :P og Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted April 10, 2004 Report Share Posted April 10, 2004 Hi all ..i would appreciate a link or other reference to 'Smith echo' ..like a lot of other stuff i hear different stories from different folks and would like to read a definitive version. I agree in general with the comments about use of 'brain-power'... having not played any serious bridge for years i played in trials recently and played > 260 boards over 2 consecutive weekends.. was a bit of a shock.. much harder than playing long sessions on bbo where p will accept a 'sry p' for the odd blunder. When i was learning bridge there were a number of very strong players in this area (N.Ireland!) ..who played what they called 'in-suit' signals.. ie any 'unusual' carding sequence was a signal .. (eg: holding 8763 ..following 6,3 was routine (playing std carding) .. 8,3 7,3 7,6 7,3 carding potentially carried different meanings) not knowing any better, i assumed this was routine bridge technique but it draws no response from most partners here on BBO. any comments? Regards, Easter-Bunny-D :P og The web links that I have just looked up are all basically consistent with each other and consistently at odds with my understanding (which included its use in Trump contracts, where the references all speak of NT). http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=b...y&f=glosss.html http://www.bridgeguys.com/SGlossary/SmithSignals.html http://www.slospin.net/Duplicate%20Bridge/...e_smithecho.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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